Author Topic: "Freedom isn't Free"  (Read 7099 times)

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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 07:14:14 PM »
Any assumptions as to what hackers or the government will do afterwards are just that...assumptions.

and he who fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it...

absolute power corrupts absolutely...


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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 07:19:37 PM »
Now you're being obtuse. You said, "What if it saved lives?" That's an assumption to justify an action based around a possible future event. Then you said, "Any assumptions as to what hackers or the government will do afterwards are just that..." That is not an assumption but an outright denial of facts. There's ample current evidence of what exactly hackers do daily, and recent evidence of what governments have done. These are not assumptions by those who foresee the inevitable outcome.

Until Congress mandates that devices used by the government are managed with software to retrieve all the content whether locked by a User, and States follow suit (for municipal devices) then this debate will rage on. Private companies can do what they want, but I suspect you'll see a significant push for MDM (mobile device management) solutions to be employed by more and more American companies to deal with the preponderance of BYOD (bring your own device) cultures.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2016, 07:43:16 PM »
Lol, its funny how far you're reaching on that one.
How is it fact of what hackers will do, when so far...like you said...there is no back door to apples encryption and its un hackable? Do hackers daily hack into apple's products? I thought that was tough to do.
Also, I don't get where you're going with saying that my question was an assumption. It was a hypothetical question to encourage thought, clearly didn't work.
It's easier to have a debate with people that stay on topic and don't make very broad statements about hackers.
As for my denial of facts, can you predict the future? I can't, it would help me a ton with my job! Any "prediction" of events that take place involving hackers after the outcome of THIS case are assumptions. Based on the in depth information you provided us about hackers and their trends, I would say it is likely but because nobody can predict the future, it's still an assumption because it has not occurred yet.
Don't name call and attack me when you can't argue the topic. That's obtuse behavior.


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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2016, 09:22:51 PM »
Freedom isn't free, but college should be.  Yea Bernie!

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2016, 09:58:22 PM »
This has nothing to do with "hackers" getting the code, the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al. already have the best "hackers" in the world and in fact could probably break into that iPhone if they really wanted to.

The key to this entire case is the government trying to establish legal precedent to allow them to access any type of encryption used anywhere. 

The FBI is choosing to promote this case deliberately to take advantage of peoples fears and emotions to try to stop companies from mainstreaming good encryption forever.

That's why this is such a big deal.

It is no secret that the thought of theoretically unbreakable encryption in the hands of the public disturbs the powers-that-be around the world and has for years. (Insert you favorite conspiracy theory here.)

It's sad that we have come to a position where private corporation is truly more interested in protecting our privacy than our own government.

I predict this case will get argued all the way to the Supreme Court before it's over.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 10:18:41 PM »
It's easier to have a debate with people that stay on topic and don't make very broad statements about hackers.

From Cals previous post

Quote
I've been dealing with Classified computing, Encryption and Secure Computing Facilities for almost 30 years

I'd say Cal knows far more about this subject than you JW, ever known or dealt with a hacker, and I mean a real one..? What he's saying is fact, not some made up fantasy.. How would you even know those statements were broad without a similar understanding to Cals 30 years experience in this field..? It seems you are the one that's ill informed or maybe a bit naive , I don't think you even understand what he's saying...

This has nothing to do with "hackers" getting the code, the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al. already have the best "hackers" in the world and in fact could probably break into that iPhone if they really wanted to.

The key to this entire case is the government trying to establish legal precedent to allow them to access any type of encryption used anywhere. 

The FBI is choosing to promote this case deliberately to take advantage of peoples fears and emotions to try to stop companies from mainstreaming good encryption forever.

That's why this is such a big deal.

It is no secret that the thought of theoretically unbreakable encryption in the hands of the public disturbs the powers-that-be around the world and has for years. (Insert you favorite conspiracy theory here.)

It's sad that we have come to a position where private corporation is truly more interested in protecting our privacy than our own government.

I predict this case will get argued all the way to the Supreme Court before it's over.

I don't doubt that fear is once again being used as a manipulative tool to scare the sheep into giving up more personal privacy and freedom, this is currently a world wide trend and after reading certain comments here I can clearly see why they do it, most people don't see the bigger picture until its too late. Anyone ever watch 1982..?  We all laughed at the "rubbish" portrayed in that film, its turned out to be a fairly accurate depiction of current affairs, but it was all alarmist crap. wasn't it... ::)
I hope it does go all the way to the supreme court, and I hope the Government fails miserably...

Freedom isn't free, but college should be.  Yea Bernie!

If the majority were more educated there would be less sh1t like this happening, our governments want us dumbed down, makes it easier for them to fool us with bullsh1t, everyone should have the right to a good education....

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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2016, 03:16:24 AM »
With the "dumbing down" of our public education already, more people educated for "free" would only create more ignorant sycophants, not less. If you stop and interrogate our college students today, many have no clue about matters of American history, politics, or even ancient history. Thanks but I'll pass making it "free" for the masses.

Have you ever gotten anything "free" that was worth a crap? Me either.

JW - you professed the position of Devils Advocate but you seem out off by examples that surround your argument. I've meant no offense to you but was happy to engage in a debate about the perils and merits of encryption.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2016, 06:25:15 AM »
It's this about the rights/freedom of American people? Or hackers and encryption?
Who stands to gain the most from this? The fbi or Apple? 
I'm not sure who is right in this case, I trust the courts but I think Apple stands to gain the most from this in eventual sales and the fbi looks like a bully for doing what they should in leaving no stone unturned.
As for free college, more fun!!!
College will never be free, unless campuses somehow can not pay professors,utilities or any other bills...the student that attends for "free" is a ploy to get dumb people to vote democratic as usual. Nothing is free and the cost will go to the tax payer. Now the student pays more taxes for the rest of their lives instead of school loans for however long. Bernie already said he wanted people to pay the majority of what they make in taxes. Bernie sanders is scarier than all this Apple fbi talk! I don't know where communism has helped the rights of man ever in history. Keep voting democrat and watch the government get bigger and more intrusive.


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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2016, 10:42:51 AM »
Exactly, JW. Like have the keys to decrypt all private data.  Don't you see the parallel listen to both things?   Respectfully I believe that your perspective is purely from a law enforcement agent attempting to do a thorough investigation as opposed to understanding the long term, widespread ramifications of forcing a company to provide master decryption keys to any citizens encrypted data. 

That's the point I have tried to me, apparently rather clumsily.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2016, 11:20:24 AM »
Read the court documents and know the facts before you say things like that. The Feds offered to provide Apple with the phone and are only asking for the data. Not the keys to the universe like you profess. The Feds will place the phone in apple's hands. It's in black and white, go read it.


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Offline demon78

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2016, 12:04:21 PM »
It continually pisses me off that you southerners cast every thing in communism versus america why,is it
because you are incapable of finer definitions than that or what . I have had universal health for most of my life that does not make me a communist you have a military it does not work on free speech, free thought any more than any military so are all military organizations communist? Oh and I don't give a flying #$%* about Bernie or Donny.
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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2016, 12:10:37 PM »
Physical possession of the device is immaterial. As is the offer from the DOJ to allow Apple the choice to retain and destroy afterwards the technology. You miss the point, I guess because you don't understand the difference between the technologies. I have read extensively about this, now and previously because it is my business to know these things.

I acknowledge that many people don't get the big deal and that's perfectly okay. Some do, and still don't care. That's okay too. But for those who do care, this matters greatly. I'll wager it won't happen because "an effected party" will file an injunction in Federal Court to prevent Apple from complying until this matter reaches the Supreme Court. And I guarantee the recently departed Justice Scalia would have led the charge to prevent it from occurring due to constitutional issues. Here and elsewhere.

It's not about the rights of a terrorist or a conspiracy to obstruct justice. It's about protecting individuals rights and limiting any government. There's no law against the proliferation of encryption technology so you can not force a company to unwind it after the fact. No matter the "justification".
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2016, 03:01:06 PM »
Law enforcement/government cannot force any company to break the encryption. The fourth amendment and courts take care of that.
I understand that in this case the tech is being debated but your failing to understand that encryption falls under a larger umbrella of privacy and will need to be hashed out in court. As will a lot of other future technology. Case law is established everyday.
To just enter into somebody's data for the purposes of a search would violate the fourth amendment which is what you keep insisting will happen. If you now say that the government will do what they want because...insert excuse... Then you are not arguing the legitimacy of the suit or warrant and instead are entering into the realm of what ifs and what might be. Kinda conspiratorial in my mind when you say that law enforcement will have the decryption key to ANY citizens encrypted data. That sounds like a warrant less search to me and violates the fourth amendment.
And Bill, to compare communism to a military is crazy. That's apples and oranges. A military has to be run in the fashion it is, chain of command etc., for a reason. Otherwise, military's would be anarchy.


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2016, 03:21:18 PM »
Have you ever gotten anything "free" that was worth a crap? Me either.

A proper and diverse education is well worth it Cal, not your "dumbed down system",  I was educated broadly, partly due to the fact that I come from a young country with little history, my education, like millions of other Aussies, was diverse and international, I was also taught to question everything, why are you guys so against anything free...? You don't seem to care that it works, or has worked elsewhere, when done properly of course.... ;)
And Yes Cal, my education and my health mate, both highly significant and free {as in no out of pocket expenses} , I'm still alive due to something that was basically provided for "free", as is my ongoing care.... ;) 
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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2016, 04:47:54 PM »
Ah, but Retro it wasn't free. It was paid by tax income, the government just didn't bill you. I'm not opposed to higher education at all. I welcome it. I just don't see it broadly available here anymore.

JW - you are all over the place in your arguments. The Court has already issued an Order to compel Apple, therefore the 4th is not at issue. As to whether the 4th would protect other citizens, well let's look back to the NSA data collection argument. The "keys" to the kingdom would not be the unique decryption code, it would be the ability to bypass the passcode which in turn unlocks the encryption algorithm. Really you need a primer in technology to wage this argument.

You're a cop, so I'll ask this question of you: do you favor Law and Order or, do you work for justice?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2016, 04:56:56 PM »
Ah, but Retro it wasn't free. It was paid by tax income, the government just didn't bill you. I'm not opposed to higher education at all. I welcome it. I just don't see it broadly available here anymore.

I knew you'd say that, was even going to put it in brackets... ;D  Still, its a better way of doing things.... ;)
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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2016, 05:47:22 PM »
You need a primer in reading comp. my 4th amendment statements were regarding your comment about the government having access to ANY citizens phone AFTER this ruling. Don't pick and choose what you want to understand.
The court documents also address your issues with bypassing the passcode. Again Apple could do this on their campus and destroy the backdoor. I don't see why they would share the backdoor with the world.
I've had enough fun talking to a wall. Time to get back to reality.


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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2016, 05:57:43 PM »
I forgot to address the justice thing since you asked... Again you assuming to know how I operate and you wouldn't know justice if it slapped you in the face. Do you think the families of San Bernardino will have justice? That's what matters.


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Offline demon78

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2016, 06:15:38 PM »
Cal I agree its not free but you pay  taxes for something, I think that my taxes should go to make sure the citizens of my country are looked after medically so that they are not a danger to me because of disease  and other things. Jw as far as the big C goes you guys have to define  what it means because you toss that word off to mean any thing that is different to your system and that is sloppy thinking and we need less sloppy thinking in the world, I think you might agree on that. Any how guys I am just back from my absolutely favourite Greek restaurant a place called PAN in the Danforth area of Toronto where I never ever had any thing mediocre in the 10 or so years of going there and after Retsina, Rosemary Chicken in Phyllo pastry and Louckoumades and sundry side dishes Morpheus calls my name ever more insistently.
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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2016, 07:41:30 PM »
You need a primer in reading comp. my 4th amendment statements were regarding your comment about the government having access to ANY citizens phone AFTER this ruling. Don't pick and choose what you want to understand.
Ah, you misunderstand the meaning of "access". My intention is that with this new "bypass device" Law Enforcement (or anyone with effort and means) will now be able to access what was previously unaccessible. I know the law, JW, thanks.

Quote
The court documents also address your issues with bypassing the passcode. Again Apple could do this on their campus and destroy the backdoor. I don't see why they would share the backdoor with the world.
I've had enough fun talking to a wall. Time to get back to reality.
Sorry, the court documents don't address jack. What the documents say is that the Federal Government is Ordering Apple to comply with a judicial order to create a work-around to the very security created to keep people from doing what they (Apple) are now being ordered to do. The Federal Magistrate used the pretense of "The All Writs Act" as their is no legal pretense for what Apple is being ordered to do. Oddly, I think you may see an argument based on the 3rd Amendment to defend Apple's burden to thwart the All Writs Act.

**The All Writs Act is a United States federal statute, codified at 28 U.S.C. § 1651, which authorizes the United States federal courts to "issue all writs necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law." The act in its original form was part of the Judiciary Act of 1789. The current form of the act was first passed in 1911[1] and the act has been amended several times since then.

As for Apple taking a device onto their internal network, well, that is incredibly dangerous. They have no idea what is on the device, what damage it might do, and thus no rational person would permit it from an IT perspective. And yes, it actually needs to be on their internal development network to attempt to engineer a back door. It can't be in isolation because the very certificate and restoration servers only live on their live network. Once again the technology challenges are greater than you realize.


I forgot to address the justice thing since you asked... Again you assuming to know how I operate and you wouldn't know justice if it slapped you in the face. Do you think the families of San Bernardino will have justice? That's what matters.
Testy of you. I actually do know justice, thanks. Despite our being on opposite sides of a debate, I haven't lost my respect for you or your profession. But my posit was this: If you rely on the Judicial process for justice, then you can't really expect to trample the rights of others to get justice. It's the old "means to an end" argument that fails when those who uphold the law, break it. They may break it in the interest of justice, but at what expense?

Remember, this thread was about "Freedom isn't Free". We are arguing about the cost of our liberty and freedom, and the risks we take to enjoy it. Too frequently, the citizens are told "Its in the interest of Public Safety/ National Security...". Well, that may sometimes be true, but it isn't always. And in this particular case of the FBI, their grievance really needs to be with the County of San Bernadino for issuing a device that they (SB Co.) had no control over. Apple is becoming the scapegoat (as mentioned many times earlier) and I suspect (as others do as well) that the FBI is using this moment to drive public support for instituting a new variation of the Patriot Act. Remember that one?

If the FBI is genuinely concerned about an impending threat and the data that is on that phone, heck, gather up all his relatives, friends and drinking buddies, and waterboard them until Noah sails his next Ark. Why let Miranda get in the way? It's in the interest of national security after all and their actions just might bring justice to the families in SB Co. (Which the Feds are culpable for, not Apple).
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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 07:55:14 PM »
Still, its a better way of doing things.... ;)
Its better for the recipient than the benefactor I'll grant you that.

Cal I agree its not free but you pay  taxes for something, I think that my taxes should go to make sure the citizens of my country are looked after medically so that they are not a danger to me because of disease  and other things.

I agree, having the ability to actually determine where my taxes are spent would be heaven on earth! I also see the merit of public medicine for those who need the services. Those who can pay for it, let them pay, those who can not, help them. But how we have attempted to wedge it in, is in my opinion, the worst possible way.

Our Federal debt is so out of kilter that even contemplating more "free stuff" is beyond the realm of fantasy. We already are $20 TRILLION in debt. Why would it be so hard to convert the US to a socialized medicine? Because we don't have the funds to cover the enormous population >350,000,000 and growing daily. Sorry, but thats just not a practical reality given how our money is spent on the rest of the world already.

Now, if we stopped sending BILLIONS of dollars to the UN, BILLIONS of dollars to the Middle East "allies", BILLIONS in trade deficits, BILLIONS of waste in the Federal Government, then we'd have a very easy time of providing First Class health care to every citizen and their "guests". Help me get that implemented and I'll also champion "Free College"  :D
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 11:40:26 PM »
I forgot to address the justice thing since you asked... Again you assuming to know how I operate and you wouldn't know justice if it slapped you in the face. Do you think the families of San Bernardino will have justice? That's what matters.

Thats funny mate, 30,000 Americans or more are killed by other Americans with guns every year,  the terrorists don't stand a chance of equaling that appalling statistic, even on a world wide scale. You continuously bleat on about these people in San Bernardino,  Whilst I sincerely feel sorry for the families that lost loved ones in these tragic circumstances, it pales in significance when compared to a multitude of far worse statistics, none of which have led to anything like this attempt at a massive invasion of the populations privacy at all, and on the off chance that it 'might just" stop another one, I find it laughable, you can shoot each other by the thousands, but when it gets called "terrorism" out comes the fear campaign, no matter how ridiculous or unfounded it is....

Still, its a better way of doing things.... ;)
Its better for the recipient than the benefactor I'll grant you that.


I disagree, I think its a great use of our tax dollar and benefits all as it doesn't discriminate based on your wealth...
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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2016, 04:25:27 AM »
I'm sorry if I was "bleating" about the topic topic we were discussing. Would you like me to just talk about sunshine and bleached #$%*s instead. I was certainly not the one putting on the fear campaign either, I was saying the whole time to let the courts handle it and the others were saying that our privacy was being invaded by giving up the keys to the universe and hackers or the government were going to have all our data.
Another one here that needs improvement in reading comp and should mind your business down under if you can't understand what is going on.


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Offline calj737

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2016, 05:07:03 AM »
I get it now. We read what you write, draw the incorrect conclusions, and its our reading comprehension thats at fault? It's not possible that its your myopia or ill-structured arguments that meander all over the place. Regrettably, I find myself bouncing my head on the concrete whilst reading your circular arguments.

The sign of someone losing an argument is testiness, irritability and snide comments. You portend that since you are a Street Cop, you understand everything. I deal with Cyber Crime. I have to know more than bits and bytes, including aspects of the law. Its all been said within this thread multiple times, by numerous people. The FBI and the Federal courts have no right to force any company into this action. And as for a recent precedent of "Big Bad Government" abusing technology backdoors, I give you this:
http://www.wired.com/2015/12/researchers-solve-the-juniper-mystery-and-they-say-its-partially-the-nsas-fault/

If you don't believe this to be a relevant example of exactly why this Court Order is so problematic, then you really need a class in the US Constitution, and not from President Obama.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline dusterdude

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2016, 08:56:39 AM »
Cal,is your head hurting yet?that wall has to be winning
mark
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