Author Topic: "Freedom isn't Free"  (Read 7144 times)

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Offline RevDoc

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"Freedom isn't Free"
« on: February 18, 2016, 12:29:06 PM »
 
February 18, 2016
Santiago, Chile
 

Years ago, back in my days at the academy and in the military, I used to hear this phrase “freedom isn’t free” over and over again.

It was almost a sort of motto for a lot of military units-- a self-motivating expression that freedom came at a price, and it was our solemn responsibility to pay that price.

It’s a true statement. Freedom is NOT free.

History shows that the path to liberty almost invariably involves conflict, whether it was the American Revolution, or Brown vs. the Board of Education.

And these conflicts often demand a very steep price from those who fight them.

Today we are in the midst of another great conflict. I’m not talking about hostilities in Syria or even the Global War on Terror.

This conflict is between the individual and the state.

Governments around the world have demonstrated that they are willing to trample on individual liberties with no thought to the larger implications.

They tell us what we can and cannot put in our bodies. They take our children away when they deem us unfit parents in their sole discretion.

They tell us to be afraid of men in caves… or angry teenagers in the desert… or bad people lurking in the night… and then use that fear as an excuse to dismantle the freedoms that previous generations paid such a steep price to achieve.

We’ve now found out that the US government has demanded that Apple, in the words of CEO Tim Cook, “build a backdoor to the iPhone.”

Cook’s letter to customers describes how the government wants to access data on the iPhone of the man who perpetrated the 2015 San Bernadino mass shooting.

Apple’s iPhone operating system automatically encrypts data and only makes it available to a user who knows the password.

Since Apple doesn’t know the shooter’s password, they cannot access the data through normal means.

That’s why the FBI wants them to build a backdoor, and the government has commanded Apple to comply under the authority of a law dating back to 1789.

As Tim Cook points out,
 
“[W]hile the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control.
 
“The implications of the government’s demands are chilling. If the government can use the All Writs Act to make it easier to unlock your iPhone, it would have the power to reach into anyone’s device to capture their data.

“The government could extend this breach of privacy and demand that Apple build surveillance software to intercept your messages, access your health records or financial data, track your location, or even access your phone’s microphone or camera without your knowledge.”

The government may very well be acting in the interest of ‘protecting the American people’.

And US presidents often point out these days that their #1 responsibility is to keep American safe.

Actually, it’s not.

Nearly all federal officials, including the President, take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

That is their #1 responsibility-- to uphold the principles of freedom that define an entire nation.

They have routinely broken that oath, trading other people’s freedom for the illusion of greater security.

It’s easy to sing songs about how free you are… to cheer Lady Gaga’s rendition of the national anthem at the Superbowl when she hits the high note on the word “free”.

But none of that comes at a price.

Our price is making a difficult choice between liberty and security-- to choose fear or freedom.

When we feel that our families’ security is threatened, the knee-jerk reaction is often to say “give the government whatever it needs to make us safe!”

But the harsh reality is that such short-term thinking creates a much more ominous world in the long-term.

And every tacit acquiescence to intrusive government authority is a brick laid on the road to tyranny.
 
Until tomorrow, 

Simon Black
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2016, 01:44:36 PM »
Just send it over to the NSA if you want the data.  :)
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Offline Redline it

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2016, 01:46:57 PM »
Freedom, to me is like repression, restraint, limits, and terrorism. It's all my mind of what I want to believe about it, and whether or not I want to let it control me. When one is followed or chased, the others become insanely out of perspective. Freedom: just another word for control.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2016, 03:45:14 PM »
Apple is full of crap. Not mentioned is they have unlocked IPhones on 50 different occasions for law enforcement.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2016, 05:20:44 PM »
I am so tired of hearing about 9/11. I am in NY, I saw the towers come down, lost neighbors in that attack. They use it as a way to convince you, or scare you into giving up your privacy.
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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2016, 08:23:05 PM »
Pay attention to what? If they did it 50 times before...getting into people's information...what's difference does it make if it's encrypted this time.
I'm not saying I agree with apple or the fbi but why be a hypocrite about it now and what if they found info about a future attack and saved 14 other lives by checking this one terrorist phone. Hopefully it wouldn't be used to get other citizens info but this is big brother were talking about.
Just playing devils advocate kinda.


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Offline grcamna2

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2016, 08:51:39 PM »
Truth & Knowledge is Power and that brings us to Choices  ;)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 08:53:12 PM by grcamna2 »
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Offline Ichiban 4

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2016, 11:54:13 PM »
Here's something I came across recently.
 
Not your typical take on "freedom"..but enough stuff in there to make one ponder (it's also akin to what Soichiro Honda said about freedom and profit BTW) http://www.kanbun.org/chienowa/eng/interview/kato.html

Ichi
 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 11:56:53 PM by Ichiban 4 »
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Offline demon78

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 04:51:48 AM »
Ichi some of the things discussed I "know" organically from just living and thinking. I have held the heretical view that unrestrained growth is the same as cancer there has to be a balance between growth and people, as far as freedom goes same thing complete freedom is great until an complete #$%* gets it and then there has to be limits so that everyone else is not damaged by afore mentioned #$%* and now we get to the problem who manages the growth and the #$%*. Ideally it should come from the ground up (the family) it certainly can't come from religion which has historically failed to provide the the underpinnings (probably because of the competing agendas and factions) so maybe a standard philosophy/ethical guide line should be taught from kindergarden up to p.h.d. mandated by society and no exceptions. I would view it the same as universal immunization ( the ones that don't get immunized are a threat to the rest of us) and the ones that don't subscribe to an universal ethical standard are a threat to all of us. Some will scream "communism, you are restricting my rights" all I can say to that what makes your rights more important than mine and societies, this shift has to be subtle, gradual and from the very bottom because there is no way it could be implemented by an external force, the push back would be enormous. Utopian, yep, but everyone has to realize that they are responsible/interconnected with the world and inhabitants in other words time to grow up.
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 06:21:45 AM »
I'm a huge Apple fan, not a Tim Cook fan, but applaud him/them on this position. Backdoors have been coded out of software as Security Reviews of Source Code have been conducted under Federal Mandate. Now the FBI wants one put in? Baffling and frightening.

The backdoor is available to anyone who knows it is there.  With all this publicity the whole world will know the outcome.  If apple does install a backdoor every would be criminal will be searching for it.


Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 10:28:28 AM »
I'm a huge Apple fan, not a Tim Cook fan, but applaud him/them on this position. Backdoors have been coded out of software as Security Reviews of Source Code have been conducted under Federal Mandate. Now the FBI wants one put in? Baffling and frightening.

The backdoor is available to anyone who knows it is there.  With all this publicity the whole world will know the outcome.  If apple does install a backdoor every would be criminal will be searching for it.

Absolutely. No manufacturer of such equipment worth their salt does not put one in. Past a certain OS revision the way I understand it is all Iphones' drives are encrypted by default with the user's password or fingerprint being their key.

And I can pretty much guarantee the NSA has the crack code to just about anything under the sun.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2016, 12:42:24 PM »
I'm a huge Apple fan, not a Tim Cook fan, but applaud him/them on this position. Backdoors have been coded out of software as Security Reviews of Source Code have been conducted under Federal Mandate. Now the FBI wants one put in? Baffling and frightening.

The backdoor is available to anyone who knows it is there.  With all this publicity the whole world will know the outcome.  If apple does install a backdoor every would be criminal will be searching for it.

Absolutely. No manufacturer of such equipment worth their salt does not put one in. Past a certain OS revision the way I understand it is all Iphones' drives are encrypted by default with the user's password or fingerprint being their key.

And I can pretty much guarantee the NSA has the crack code to just about anything under the sun.

I think you give the NSA a bit too much credit, and Apple not enough. This new OS is unique in that you get I believe 8 tries and then it destroys the data.

If that were not the case they would simply do a brute force attack on the phone where they have a program that can make an infinate number of random sequences until they get the right one.

"Freedom is not Free" can also mean you side on personal privacy, and you will have a risk something will happen. i for one am willing to take the risk.   
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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2016, 02:02:46 PM »
And I don't think you give them enough. Codes and encryption is what they are about.
Just remember this- NOTHING is unhackable.
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JWExperience

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2016, 02:25:28 PM »
Calj, you're arguing the tech and I'm arguing the hypocrisy end. I'm not saying it's right either way. But prior breaches of privacy on the part of Apple for apparent due cause have already set a precedent.
If the encryption end of it is sooooo important and also the reason why the apparent violation of a terrorists rights is such a difficult thing for some to comprehend, why doesn't Tim Cook say he refuses to unlock due to the encryption. Seems to me if it's as important as you think then the ceo of Apple would be smart enough to tell everyone that.





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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2016, 02:37:50 PM »
Speaking as one who has been building computers from the soldering iron in 1970 until these days, including having written 2 operating systems (albeit small ones) from scratch, and LONG before the "PC" was even dreamed up: while digitally-stored information can always be recovered, the method by which it may also be encrypted before writing or reading, and thus encrypted/decoded by even something as simple as an XOR or NXOR of each byte, alternating by a rotating code, can turn the data into nothing but random bits on a substrate.

In 'English' this means: it is entirely possible to permanently encrypt and hide data, even making it self-destruct if the read of that data is not done with the proper 'key'. If the 'key' is not known, it can be anything under the sun, which then makes it a googolplex combination of different versions, even with a simple 8-bit encryption word.

I, for one, congratulate Apple. There is no immorality in making one's own data safe. :)
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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2016, 03:14:50 PM »
I hate donuts.
My TRAINED mind would not stop investigating based on a hunch that the terrorist had no information on that phone. I do believe that he destroyed any information to be found but I would investigate as far as I could or I would feel like I was failing to do my due diligence. Can you tell anyone on this site the who, what, where, etc. of the terrorists plan? Why ask me these nonsense questions then? This is the reason for a thorough investigation.
If a family member of yours was killed in that attack, would you be ok with the fbi not looking into every lead? What if it saved future lives?
This instance is not a case of the big bad government violating a poor terrorists rights if they have cause. That's how I feel. Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Any assumptions as to what hackers or the government will do afterwards are just that...assumptions.
I do not want innocent people having their stuff hacked either. I joined this thread playing devils advocate and it's very hard to keep doing that when people use hypothetical situations or false assumptions to base their arguments upon.


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Offline Duanob

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2016, 03:24:49 PM »
I'm not sure why the FEDS couldn't just get a warrant for that one particular phone. Personally I would like to know if these two terrorists had help and are part of a bigger group inside the US borders.

i wouldn't be interested in any other phones until they are part of evidence of another terror plot like this example.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 03:27:30 PM by Duanob »
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Re: &quot;Freedom isn't Free&quot;
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2016, 06:49:54 PM »
Are you saying that the authorities don't have a right to investigate the terrorist in this case? I'm not sure what assumption I made.


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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2016, 07:14:14 PM »
Any assumptions as to what hackers or the government will do afterwards are just that...assumptions.

and he who fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it...

absolute power corrupts absolutely...


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Re: &quot;Freedom isn't Free&quot;
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2016, 07:43:16 PM »
Lol, its funny how far you're reaching on that one.
How is it fact of what hackers will do, when so far...like you said...there is no back door to apples encryption and its un hackable? Do hackers daily hack into apple's products? I thought that was tough to do.
Also, I don't get where you're going with saying that my question was an assumption. It was a hypothetical question to encourage thought, clearly didn't work.
It's easier to have a debate with people that stay on topic and don't make very broad statements about hackers.
As for my denial of facts, can you predict the future? I can't, it would help me a ton with my job! Any "prediction" of events that take place involving hackers after the outcome of THIS case are assumptions. Based on the in depth information you provided us about hackers and their trends, I would say it is likely but because nobody can predict the future, it's still an assumption because it has not occurred yet.
Don't name call and attack me when you can't argue the topic. That's obtuse behavior.


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scrapvalue

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2016, 09:22:51 PM »
Freedom isn't free, but college should be.  Yea Bernie!

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: "Freedom isn't Free"
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2016, 09:58:22 PM »
This has nothing to do with "hackers" getting the code, the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al. already have the best "hackers" in the world and in fact could probably break into that iPhone if they really wanted to.

The key to this entire case is the government trying to establish legal precedent to allow them to access any type of encryption used anywhere. 

The FBI is choosing to promote this case deliberately to take advantage of peoples fears and emotions to try to stop companies from mainstreaming good encryption forever.

That's why this is such a big deal.

It is no secret that the thought of theoretically unbreakable encryption in the hands of the public disturbs the powers-that-be around the world and has for years. (Insert you favorite conspiracy theory here.)

It's sad that we have come to a position where private corporation is truly more interested in protecting our privacy than our own government.

I predict this case will get argued all the way to the Supreme Court before it's over.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 10:05:07 PM by CycleRanger »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: &quot;Freedom isn't Free&quot;
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2016, 10:18:41 PM »
It's easier to have a debate with people that stay on topic and don't make very broad statements about hackers.

From Cals previous post

Quote
I've been dealing with Classified computing, Encryption and Secure Computing Facilities for almost 30 years

I'd say Cal knows far more about this subject than you JW, ever known or dealt with a hacker, and I mean a real one..? What he's saying is fact, not some made up fantasy.. How would you even know those statements were broad without a similar understanding to Cals 30 years experience in this field..? It seems you are the one that's ill informed or maybe a bit naive , I don't think you even understand what he's saying...

This has nothing to do with "hackers" getting the code, the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al. already have the best "hackers" in the world and in fact could probably break into that iPhone if they really wanted to.

The key to this entire case is the government trying to establish legal precedent to allow them to access any type of encryption used anywhere. 

The FBI is choosing to promote this case deliberately to take advantage of peoples fears and emotions to try to stop companies from mainstreaming good encryption forever.

That's why this is such a big deal.

It is no secret that the thought of theoretically unbreakable encryption in the hands of the public disturbs the powers-that-be around the world and has for years. (Insert you favorite conspiracy theory here.)

It's sad that we have come to a position where private corporation is truly more interested in protecting our privacy than our own government.

I predict this case will get argued all the way to the Supreme Court before it's over.

I don't doubt that fear is once again being used as a manipulative tool to scare the sheep into giving up more personal privacy and freedom, this is currently a world wide trend and after reading certain comments here I can clearly see why they do it, most people don't see the bigger picture until its too late. Anyone ever watch 1982..?  We all laughed at the "rubbish" portrayed in that film, its turned out to be a fairly accurate depiction of current affairs, but it was all alarmist crap. wasn't it... ::)
I hope it does go all the way to the supreme court, and I hope the Government fails miserably...

Freedom isn't free, but college should be.  Yea Bernie!

If the majority were more educated there would be less sh1t like this happening, our governments want us dumbed down, makes it easier for them to fool us with bullsh1t, everyone should have the right to a good education....

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Re: &quot;Freedom isn't Free&quot;
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2016, 06:25:15 AM »
It's this about the rights/freedom of American people? Or hackers and encryption?
Who stands to gain the most from this? The fbi or Apple? 
I'm not sure who is right in this case, I trust the courts but I think Apple stands to gain the most from this in eventual sales and the fbi looks like a bully for doing what they should in leaving no stone unturned.
As for free college, more fun!!!
College will never be free, unless campuses somehow can not pay professors,utilities or any other bills...the student that attends for "free" is a ploy to get dumb people to vote democratic as usual. Nothing is free and the cost will go to the tax payer. Now the student pays more taxes for the rest of their lives instead of school loans for however long. Bernie already said he wanted people to pay the majority of what they make in taxes. Bernie sanders is scarier than all this Apple fbi talk! I don't know where communism has helped the rights of man ever in history. Keep voting democrat and watch the government get bigger and more intrusive.


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JWExperience

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Re: &quot;Freedom isn't Free&quot;
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2016, 11:20:24 AM »
Read the court documents and know the facts before you say things like that. The Feds offered to provide Apple with the phone and are only asking for the data. Not the keys to the universe like you profess. The Feds will place the phone in apple's hands. It's in black and white, go read it.


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