Author Topic: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.  (Read 2209 times)

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Offline Jp from Oz

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Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« on: February 26, 2016, 11:27:13 PM »
Ok so I bought a new Electrosport reg/rec a few months ago from the US, and I've had it sitting in the box unopened since november. I was just looking at the same website last night for other parts and I saw this on the description of the reg/rec I bought, not sure if this note was there when I originally bought it but I wouldn't have if I had seen it as I want to run a lithium battery for the weight saving on my little 400f...
 *Note: This is not designed to work with Lithium batteries. It does work with all standard lead-acid based batteries which came stock on the models below. It also works with AGM, Gel and other sealed batteries.
 Is there a brand that definitely does work with lithium ion batteries?

Thanks in advance guys, JP.

Offline calj737

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2016, 03:49:16 AM »
Rick's definitely works with Li type batteries. I've dealt with bikes that had ElectroSport R/Rs and Li batteries and not seen issues before. Which specific model did you buy from ElectroSport? The only caveat for a R/R and a Li battery is limiting the maximum charge to 14.8v. Any higher will burn up a Li battery, and most lead acid types too.
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Offline Jp from Oz

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2016, 04:03:16 AM »
G'day Cal, How are you mate?  I bought the Electrosport ESR240 from 4into1, it looks like a quality product but they mentioned on the website that it is not designed to work with Li batteries. I would've bought myself  rick's reg/rec but they were sold out at the time. Bugger.
I could easily just get a AGM sealed battery but they still weigh around 4.3kg...too much for my liking, especially on a little 400f.

Offline calj737

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 04:28:50 AM »
I'll say it again, I've not seen any issues with this unit (ESR240) and Li batteries. Perhaps the warning was geared towards Lithium-Ion batteries, and not Lithium Iron batteries. If you're using a Shorai, then its a LiFe type and you should be absolutely fine. I'd be curious to know why they say its not compatible.

I still prefer the Rick's brand and I've not had any inventory issues locating them.
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 04:53:08 AM »
Electrosport probably says it's not compatible with lithium batteries because it's not compatible with lithium batteries.

Your experience of this working OK is interesting, but meaningless.
Lithium batteries and lead-acid batteries have different charge profiles. Yes, a lead-acid battery charger will pump charge into a lithium battery and a lithium battery charger will pump charge into a lead-acid battery. Neither of these combinations will give an ideal charge.
The problem is how lithium batteries can react to incorrect charging. They can overheat to thermal runaway and erupt in flames. A lead-acid battery treated badly can steam off it's electrolyte or leak out acid... but will never start on fire.
You're seeing the incompatibility warning because of that incendiary tendency. Without an explicit warning, buyers with lithium batteries could sue Electrosport if their bike battery burned down the bike/garage/house/city because an incompatible Electrosport's Reg/Rect caused a thermal runaway condition.
You are welcome to misuse the unit and install it with a lithium battery. The warning merely makes you entirely liable for subsequent disaster. How likely that disaster is... is unknown. I assume Electrosport has better uses for their time than testing these units with incompatible battery types - you become the tester. Have a fire extinguisher handy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 05:00:18 AM by Bodi »

Offline calj737

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2016, 06:09:19 AM »
Bodi I guess you didn't read my first reply or the contents of the second. Only the summary.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Bodi

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 07:04:19 AM »
Oh, I did read it all. If you use lithium-iron batteries they are safer and don't have as severe a risk of fire as the lithium ion type. Lithium-Iron battery failure involves a lot of heat but not usually a case rupture - lithium ion cell contents expand dramatically in thermal runaway, often rupturing the case and letting oxygen get at the then self-igniting lithium contents.
Lithium iron batteries are still not 100% compatible with lead-acid charging systems. If the combination works for you, go ahead and use them. You are still taking all responsibility. Electrosport is explicitly telling you they will not be liable if something goes wrong.
Electrosport is not specifying what lithium chemistry battery is not recommended. They make replacement reg/rect units to replace factory components, for standard batteries. I'm sure they could make a compatible unit for lithium battery chemistries. So far, I don't think they do.
There's a very important difference between rechargeable lithium and lead-acid batteries - lithium battery chemistry gets really ruined by over-discharge while lead-acid cells will be damaged... but not severely (and deep-discharge designs have lower charge capacity/weight but can handle deep discharging). The minimum voltage for lithium iron or lithium ion cells is 2.5V. Devices designed for them will include a low-voltage shutoff that doesn't allow further discharge and cell damage. There is no way for a bike reg/rect to do that.
I'm unconvinced that there is any reason to install a lithium battery in a motorcycle. The weight difference isn't going to make any worthwhile performance improvement, they cost more than lead-acid, no lead-acid charging system is 100% compatible, and an accidental full discharge usually kills them dead.

Offline jaycox

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 07:51:55 AM »
I disagge, there is a performance benefit on bikes, maybe more so on a dirt bike where it is mounted high and saves 4lbs of high mounted weight on a 240lb bike like where i use mine.  Also the space savings is beneficial on a cafe bike if mounted under hump.

Offline calj737

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 07:58:08 AM »
So you agree with my synopsis that Li-Ion was probably the target warning, without validating that LiFe is compatible. By the way, the ESR240 has given way to a newer model anyway.

As for benefits, true weight isn't super critical but the flexibility of mounting orientations and zero fluid emissions is definitely a major benefit. How many swing arms and battery boxes and exhausts have you seen eaten by acid?
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Offline Kenzo

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 08:54:53 AM »
I absolutely agree 100% that there are no absolutes in this world...

Lawyers, Insurance Underwriters and the like can trump common sense and even sometimes science...

If my Ballistic Performance Components EVO2-8 bursts into flames as I scream down the road then it's a Viking burial for me! ;)

Not all "Li batteries" are created equally as are rectifier/regulators.

Ballistic sells a tester for your charging system and will also answer any questions you may have about your specific application.

I've used the same EVO2-8 battery and cheap BatteryTender in three different motorcycles over the last six years. I don't lose sleep over my battery choice. :)

Cheers,
Kenzo
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Offline Jp from Oz

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 11:29:58 PM »
Ok fellas...I see some good valid points from you all on here.
I received an email from 4into1 regarding this reg/rec, and the good blokes they are will take mine back for store credit as they have on order some new reg/rec's that are made for lithium batteries. He said they should be available in store in around 3 months time, so I'll just wait for one of those for peace of mind.

Thanks for all the input too. JP

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 12:52:26 AM »
If my Ballistic Performance Components EVO2-8 bursts into flames as I scream down the road then it's a Viking burial for me! ;)

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