Author Topic: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.  (Read 2295 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jp from Oz

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Slowest bike build in history.
Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« on: February 26, 2016, 11:27:13 PM »
Ok so I bought a new Electrosport reg/rec a few months ago from the US, and I've had it sitting in the box unopened since november. I was just looking at the same website last night for other parts and I saw this on the description of the reg/rec I bought, not sure if this note was there when I originally bought it but I wouldn't have if I had seen it as I want to run a lithium battery for the weight saving on my little 400f...
 *Note: This is not designed to work with Lithium batteries. It does work with all standard lead-acid based batteries which came stock on the models below. It also works with AGM, Gel and other sealed batteries.
 Is there a brand that definitely does work with lithium ion batteries?

Thanks in advance guys, JP.

Offline Jp from Oz

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Slowest bike build in history.
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2016, 04:03:16 AM »
G'day Cal, How are you mate?  I bought the Electrosport ESR240 from 4into1, it looks like a quality product but they mentioned on the website that it is not designed to work with Li batteries. I would've bought myself  rick's reg/rec but they were sold out at the time. Bugger.
I could easily just get a AGM sealed battery but they still weigh around 4.3kg...too much for my liking, especially on a little 400f.

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,702
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2016, 04:53:08 AM »
Electrosport probably says it's not compatible with lithium batteries because it's not compatible with lithium batteries.

Your experience of this working OK is interesting, but meaningless.
Lithium batteries and lead-acid batteries have different charge profiles. Yes, a lead-acid battery charger will pump charge into a lithium battery and a lithium battery charger will pump charge into a lead-acid battery. Neither of these combinations will give an ideal charge.
The problem is how lithium batteries can react to incorrect charging. They can overheat to thermal runaway and erupt in flames. A lead-acid battery treated badly can steam off it's electrolyte or leak out acid... but will never start on fire.
You're seeing the incompatibility warning because of that incendiary tendency. Without an explicit warning, buyers with lithium batteries could sue Electrosport if their bike battery burned down the bike/garage/house/city because an incompatible Electrosport's Reg/Rect caused a thermal runaway condition.
You are welcome to misuse the unit and install it with a lithium battery. The warning merely makes you entirely liable for subsequent disaster. How likely that disaster is... is unknown. I assume Electrosport has better uses for their time than testing these units with incompatible battery types - you become the tester. Have a fire extinguisher handy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 05:00:18 AM by Bodi »

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,702
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 07:04:19 AM »
Oh, I did read it all. If you use lithium-iron batteries they are safer and don't have as severe a risk of fire as the lithium ion type. Lithium-Iron battery failure involves a lot of heat but not usually a case rupture - lithium ion cell contents expand dramatically in thermal runaway, often rupturing the case and letting oxygen get at the then self-igniting lithium contents.
Lithium iron batteries are still not 100% compatible with lead-acid charging systems. If the combination works for you, go ahead and use them. You are still taking all responsibility. Electrosport is explicitly telling you they will not be liable if something goes wrong.
Electrosport is not specifying what lithium chemistry battery is not recommended. They make replacement reg/rect units to replace factory components, for standard batteries. I'm sure they could make a compatible unit for lithium battery chemistries. So far, I don't think they do.
There's a very important difference between rechargeable lithium and lead-acid batteries - lithium battery chemistry gets really ruined by over-discharge while lead-acid cells will be damaged... but not severely (and deep-discharge designs have lower charge capacity/weight but can handle deep discharging). The minimum voltage for lithium iron or lithium ion cells is 2.5V. Devices designed for them will include a low-voltage shutoff that doesn't allow further discharge and cell damage. There is no way for a bike reg/rect to do that.
I'm unconvinced that there is any reason to install a lithium battery in a motorcycle. The weight difference isn't going to make any worthwhile performance improvement, they cost more than lead-acid, no lead-acid charging system is 100% compatible, and an accidental full discharge usually kills them dead.

Offline jaycox

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 07:51:55 AM »
I disagge, there is a performance benefit on bikes, maybe more so on a dirt bike where it is mounted high and saves 4lbs of high mounted weight on a 240lb bike like where i use mine.  Also the space savings is beneficial on a cafe bike if mounted under hump.

Offline Kenzo

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 244
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2016, 08:54:53 AM »
I absolutely agree 100% that there are no absolutes in this world...

Lawyers, Insurance Underwriters and the like can trump common sense and even sometimes science...

If my Ballistic Performance Components EVO2-8 bursts into flames as I scream down the road then it's a Viking burial for me! ;)

Not all "Li batteries" are created equally as are rectifier/regulators.

Ballistic sells a tester for your charging system and will also answer any questions you may have about your specific application.

I've used the same EVO2-8 battery and cheap BatteryTender in three different motorcycles over the last six years. I don't lose sleep over my battery choice. :)

Cheers,
Kenzo
H-Town, Tejas
>1976 CB550F SuperSport (Work In Progress)
MotoGP Werks Exhaust, Uni Pods
>2006 KTM EXC 453 (EXC 400 w/ Short Stroke Big Bore Kit)

Offline Jp from Oz

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Slowest bike build in history.
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 11:29:58 PM »
Ok fellas...I see some good valid points from you all on here.
I received an email from 4into1 regarding this reg/rec, and the good blokes they are will take mine back for store credit as they have on order some new reg/rec's that are made for lithium batteries. He said they should be available in store in around 3 months time, so I'll just wait for one of those for peace of mind.

Thanks for all the input too. JP

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,235
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Electrosport reg/rec not compatible with lithium ion battery.
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 12:52:26 AM »
If my Ballistic Performance Components EVO2-8 bursts into flames as I scream down the road then it's a Viking burial for me! ;)

 ;D ;D
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.