Author Topic: Unpleasant discovery  (Read 6367 times)

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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2016, 12:10:27 AM »
Ok thanks guys. This is the best of the bike forums I am on by a long shot, by the way.
Camelman not long ago I re-laced the back wheel with a 17 inch wider rim, stainless spokes etc. Although the rim was not 100% true it did fit within the acceptable limits when truing and I was most particular to make sure it was centered on the hub.
Also I am aware about the factory offset of the front wheel as I do have a copy of Marks book. However this bike's alignment makes any factory off set seem trivial.
The bullet has been bitten, I spoke to the frame straightener today and am dropping the bike off tomorrow.
Retro Rocket. I might have been a bit vague before. When I said swingarm attached I did mean with the back wheel in situ.
I have had a good sideways and end to end muscle of the swing arm and can feel no play in it at all. So am not going to bother about re-newing the bushings first. The bloke did not say I needed to, although I did not ask him. All I was told to do was deliver it with the engine in place(which it was )tank,sidecovers,front and rear fenders, exhaust, instruments and centerstand removed. And that he would take the front end off it to perform his business. However I did also take off the twin disc callipers and master cylinder as they were in really nice reconditioned condition and I did not want them to cop anything untoward.
Looking forward to seeing how it all goes. With the frame bent so much to my eye it will be interesting to discover what is going on regarding straightness in the forks and tripple trees.

Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2016, 12:28:40 AM »
Mr. Toe, (great name BTW!),

Ha Ha Ha.....Only just got that one mate.
Camelman and Mr Toe!....Sounds like a name for a bunch of lawyers!

Offline alacrity

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2016, 07:49:55 PM »
I checked with a friend who is a professor of physics at a local university and he offered this as what may have caused your problem: 

It's possible this can happen when a motorcycle built to be used in the northern hemisphere is ridden south of the equator.  Something to do with the coriolis effect and/or a Milankovitch cycle.  Additionally, since you are in Australia you have the compounded negative impact of riding on the wrong side of the road.  Gravity is constantly trying to bend your bike.  Now, IF you or any previous owner ever tried to carry home some of those ridiculous/enormous 10 lb (4kg) beer kegs you call "cans," that would have raised the CG to such a dangerous level that the chromoly frame, in aggregate, would never have stood a chance.  He said it's possible that he's wrong in this matter, but if he is, he doesn't want to hear about it. He's drinking.
I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.

Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2016, 03:49:44 AM »
Great argument.
Thanks for the words of wisdom.
Now I can march on, into the uncertain future with renewed confidence.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 04:10:13 AM by Old Moe Toe »

Offline Henning

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2016, 03:28:52 PM »
Regarding the chain tensioner marks, I had the swingarm off mine to replace the bushings and collar. On reassembly I managed to meticulously lined up the third marker on the one side and the fourth on the other side. Felt like a real dork when I discovered that a couple of thousand miles later, but can't say I noticed any difference before or after.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2016, 03:34:45 PM »
Regarding the chain tensioner marks, I had the swingarm off mine to replace the bushings and collar. On reassembly I managed to meticulously lined up the third marker on the one side and the fourth on the other side. Felt like a real dork when I discovered that a couple of thousand miles later, but can't say I noticed any difference before or after.

Those marks on the swingarm aren't perfect any way, I used to string line the wheels before fitting the engine and almost every time, they were not accurate... ;)
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Offline alacrity

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2016, 09:48:59 AM »
Regarding the chain tensioner marks-- on three different cb550's I have worked in in the last year they were all really close to perfectly accurate.  A previous cb500 was off by a little more than one full notch.  That bike then was crashed head on into an object (for an unrelated reason), the frame got tweaked and it went to a local shop that specializes in straightening frames (any tube-framed moto -- Dr John in Anaheim CA).  When he finished, the chain adjuster marks were perfectly accurate and the bike tracked/rode with nary a shimmy -- as designed.

My guess is that very few of these bikes left the factory with large ass-offsets/linear inaccuracies.  My guess is that somewhere in their long history something bad happened that reshaped things.  On the aforementioned cb500, pre-crash, the lines got a lot closer after replacement of swingarm bushings, loosening and retorquring engine mount bolts (also removed and checked/pressed front and clutch cable mount plates for flatness). You might also check that you have exactly the right spacers on the axle in the right locations.   Brass (or bronze?) aftermarket bushings make a huge positive difference in tail symmetry and of course, handling on these bikes.
I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.

Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2016, 11:12:54 PM »
Regarding the chain tensioner marks, I had the swingarm off mine to replace the bushings and collar. On reassembly I managed to meticulously lined up the third marker on the one side and the fourth on the other side. Felt like a real dork when I discovered that a couple of thousand miles later, but can't say I noticed any difference before or after.

Those marks on the swingarm aren't perfect any way, I used to string line the wheels before fitting the engine and almost every time, they were not accurate... ;)

This is interesting stuff. I have heard people say here that those marks should line up(which is what you would expect, that is what they are for) and others who say they don't always. Guess it is difficult to know on such old bikes what has happened to them in the past regarding accidents/smashes. I thought my KO was a genuine low mileage original paint, original everything....never been crashed etc but the wheels are not pointing exactly the same way when the notches on the swing arm correspond. There is of course the factory off set of the front wheel but it seems more than that. However the bike rides remarkably well.
My better half/wifey recently had an old Meriden Triumph bonneville. I was amazed that those old bikes had no marks at all on the swingarm and that you were expected to eyeball/stringline them true each time you adjusted the chain.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2016, 11:57:26 PM »
I'm interested in your comment regarding the front wheel's offset Moe, what offset? Both front and back wheels on CB750's are laced so that the hub is central to the rim. I rarely use the swingarm marks to line up my chain, I just eyeball it up the chain run, and have never had any problems. Another thing you can do though, is measure the length of the chain adjuster's exposed threaded portion, and as long as you've got a matching pair, it's pretty easy to get your alignment spot on. ;D
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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2016, 01:43:29 PM »
I'm interested in your comment regarding the front wheel's offset Moe, what offset? Both front and back wheels on CB750's are laced so that the hub is central to the rim. I rarely use the swingarm marks to line up my chain, I just eyeball it up the chain run, and have never had any problems. Another thing you can do though, is measure the length of the chain adjuster's exposed threaded portion, and as long as you've got a matching pair, it's pretty easy to get your alignment spot on. ;D

According to Hondamans book the front wheel is not always laced central to the hub. In fact apart from the sandasts they were all off set3-4mm toward the left caliper straight from the factory. In his book HM goes on to say that it is best if the rims are re-laced  true to the central hub though.
I have a twin disc set up and noticed when I was taking various bits off my bike to take it to the frame straightener that one brake disc was closer to the fork slider than the other one! These bikes are so full of surprises!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2016, 02:14:29 PM »
I'm interested in your comment regarding the front wheel's offset Moe, what offset? Both front and back wheels on CB750's are laced so that the hub is central to the rim. I rarely use the swingarm marks to line up my chain, I just eyeball it up the chain run, and have never had any problems. Another thing you can do though, is measure the length of the chain adjuster's exposed threaded portion, and as long as you've got a matching pair, it's pretty easy to get your alignment spot on. ;D

According to Hondamans book the front wheel is not always laced central to the hub. In fact apart from the sandasts they were all off set3-4mm toward the left caliper straight from the factory. In his book HM goes on to say that it is best if the rims are re-laced  true to the central hub though.
I have a twin disc set up and noticed when I was taking various bits off my bike to take it to the frame straightener that one brake disc was closer to the fork slider than the other one! These bikes are so full of surprises!

Have it laced back to center, there is NO benefit having a wheel offset at all, in fact, it will make it handle like a pig. You won't find one modern bike, or any bike other bike I can think off that has a wheel laced offset to the center line of the bike, and there's good reason for that. I don't believe Hondamans claim they "were all offset" from the factory, that's simply false...
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2016, 03:37:59 PM »
Yep, I agree with Retro, I've re-laced several CB750 wheels (including a K0 front wheel) over the 37 years I've owned them, and I can confirm that I've never seen one with any offset at all. The reason your disc runs so close to your fork leg is due to the shape of your hub. Hondaman's book is a good read, but not the definitive work on our bikes, that still hasn't been written..... ;D
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So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline jonda500

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2016, 04:34:58 PM »
I also don't believe these front wheels were ever laced up with anything but zero offset/dish
John
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Offline 754

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2016, 06:42:37 PM »
 KO were offset. I think Mark explains that.. no biggie.
 Every Honda I HAVE OWNED i SET TO THE MARKS, then I ride it and see if it tracks straight, they were always close,,
 If need be give it a tweak more on one side.. Then..and I alway do this... I an careful to turn the adjuster in 90 degree increments by eye.. same on both sides.. and then it stays in alignment... I only want it to go straight..dont care if that means slightly out..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2016, 07:27:30 PM »
KO were offset. I think Mark explains that.. no biggie.
 Every Honda I HAVE OWNED i SET TO THE MARKS, then I ride it and see if it tracks straight, they were always close,,
 If need be give it a tweak more on one side.. Then..and I alway do this... I an careful to turn the adjuster in 90 degree increments by eye.. same on both sides.. and then it stays in alignment... I only want it to go straight..dont care if that means slightly out..

Why Frank, do you think an offset front wheel is a good thing.. ? I don't know anyone except you that thinks its a good Idea, do you offset the rear to compensate so the bike tracks true ?. To be honest, Mark wouldn't have a clue if "all" KO's had offsets, thats pure fantasy, due to the fact that Honda couldn't keep up with demand is the likely reason the wheels were poorly laced, there's no logical reason for it..   I have no idea why you constantly jump into threads about handling and suspension when its clear you don't give a #$%* how a bike handles, and are clearly prepared to accept second best...?  Show us all one example of a modern motorcycle that comes from the factory with an "intentional" offset front wheel...? {don't hold your breath whilst looking}

Here's a little article on alignment for anyone that cares how a  bike should be set up and why.... ;D

 All you'll ever need to know about keeping those wheels traveling in the same direction

Wheel Alignment

Now the drum here is that in an ideal world, both your bike wheels will, when traveling in a straight line, be heading in the same direction. If they're not, the machine is likely to be pulling to one side - or steering in one direction easier than the other. This makes the handling a bit ordinary and will reduce tire life.

According to the folk at Sharptune, and some others we spoke to, it's relatively rare for people to do a wheel alignment on newer bikes these days mostly because the production tolerances have improved over time and the bike is likely to be pretty straight.

This wasn't always the case. Machines built up to even the mid-eighties were often not straight out of the crate.

WHICH BIKES?
We'll talk mostly about chain/belt drive bikes with twin-sided swingarms for this exercise, as you can alter their alignment with the simple device of altering the position of the chain adjusters.

The position of shaft drive bikes tends to be fixed, although some models (for example early K-series Bimmers) will allow adjustment via hub shims.

As for single-sided swingarm bikes, they too generally have a fixed alignment, which should be okay so long as it hasn't been crashed heavily, and the swingarm and wheel bearings are in good nick.

If you have a squiz at your conventional chain-drive bike, you'll see the back wheel's position can be altered with the adjusters. Whenever you tension the chain or move the wheel for any reason, you generally just line it up against the alignment marks stamped on the swingarm. If the axle is back three-and-half notches on one side, you make sure it's back three-and-a-half on the other. Simple.
As we mentioned, this is probably fine for a late-model machine that hasn't been decked. But if you're fussy, you can double check it.

TRICKS
The trick is to get a ball of twine, or you can do this exercise if you can somehow find two straight edges that are longer than the bike. The latter is a big call, so we'll stick with the string method - yep, this is ye olde "stringlining", of which you may have heard your mates speak.

Usually this is easiest with the bike on the sidestand (the centrestand usually gets in the way) and propped up as close as possible to vertical. A race stand is often a good option.

Wrap the string around the front of the front wheel, as high as possible without snagging fairings and associated under-bike hardware when you run each end of the twine under the machine. The pics will give you the idea.

From there the plan is to get the front wheel straight, and then the rear wheel adjusted so it is too. What you want to end up with is what we've shown in the main diagram - where the distances "A" (the gap between the string and the edge of the tyre) and "B" (ditto) on the trailing edge of the front wheel are equal to each other; And the distances "A" and "B" on the trailing edge of the back wheel are equal to each other. (Note: the A/B up front does not have to match A/B on the back.)

This is often best done with two people, one working on each end of the bike. It is a great help to have oil cans/bricks/jackstands to hold the loose ends of the string for you while you fiddle.

Getting it all lined up will be a bit of a fiddle, but simple enough assuming the bike is straight. The exact method isn't critical, so long as you end up with a result that looks like our diagram.

STRAIGHT?
This is one of those rare occasions where being straight is universally regarded as a fine thing. Having both ends of the motorcycle talking to each other makes cornering more predictable and makes for less wear and tear.

If the bike is so far out of whack that you can't adjust it back, you need to decide whether it's worth getting fixed. We suggest an assessment from a frame expert, who should also be able to quote on what needs to be done to put things right.

Something worth knowing, though, is that a machine with shot wheel, steering head and swingarm bearings will be impossible to get right as each of them will alter alignment. So make sure those basics are okay before you attack the frame itself. Happy aligning...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline 754

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2016, 07:35:52 PM »
Before I read all of what you said, I did not say it was a good idea, nor did I say I would run one that way.
 What I said was he explained the thinking behind it, and I believe it  may have had to do with being able to mount another disc.. the early hub was different..
 Another thing I have heard at times, is that Honda tried to account for crowned roads.. this may or may not be true.
 But really you should read and Think about what people say on here.
 I did not say this yet , but I have not yet seen a swingarm on a Honda, on an undamaged bike, that was out even a whole line width..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2016, 07:48:17 PM »
 i will relate something TTR said to me when he visited...
 he said ..sometimes folks go thru these long winded complicated procedures..and then 754 comes along and suggests a simpler way.. he said I like that..
 So again... and remove all thoughts of offset KO,s from your head..for the rest of this post.... and read this..
Try your, stock setting by the marks.. if it tracks straight, with no uneven tire wear.. go by the marks...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2016, 08:23:59 PM »
Ha ha, if your rear wheel alignment was out that bad that it was wearing your tire unevenly Frank, your chain would have fallen off long ago! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 754

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2016, 08:33:35 PM »
 I never had an alignment problem.. I did however run a K7 motor in a 72 frame with its correct sprocket rear spacing, for many months before the sprockets wearing on the side tipped me off to the problem.
 What it did illustrate to me was that 10 mm of sprocket misalignment, will not kill a chain quickly.. That was around 82 when few folks were aware of that problem..
 Again , I have never had an alignment problem some folks think I had.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2016, 09:11:09 PM »
Who? Name names Frank, or it didn't happen! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 754

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2016, 08:07:13 AM »
 The crowned road was suggested to be the cause of the necks being out a bit sideways, they are only within a fewor one degrees.. manufacturing tolerance.. can make it look like an imperfect frame.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2016, 11:52:19 PM »



[/quote]
You won't find one modern bike, or any bike other bike I can think off that has a wheel laced offset to the center line of the bike, and there's good reason for that.
[/quote]

I did not mean this thread to start up any snarkiness or ill feeling. However as to the above statement I would beg to differ with due respect.
Most modern Harleys do in fact come straight from the factory with an off set between the front and rear wheels. There is a link here, see page 4.
.
http://www.motorcyclemetal.com/downloads/harley%20Davidson%20Wheel%20Alignment%20Made%20Simple.pdf

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Unpleasant discovery
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2016, 01:45:36 AM »



You won't find one modern bike, or any bike other bike I can think off that has a wheel laced offset to the center line of the bike, and there's good reason for that.
[/quote]

I did not mean this thread to start up any snarkiness or ill feeling. However as to the above statement I would beg to differ with due respect.
Most modern Harleys do in fact come straight from the factory with an off set between the front and rear wheels. There is a link here, see page 4.
.
http://www.motorcyclemetal.com/downloads/harley%20Davidson%20Wheel%20Alignment%20Made%20Simple.pdf
[/quote]

Moe, I was talking specifically about the front wheel mate, I said it earlier in the thread.  ;)
Quote
Show us all one example of a modern motorcycle that comes from the factory with an "intentional" offset front wheel...? {don't hold your breath whilst looking}

You won't find one..
I would never put Harley and handling in the same sentence for obvious reasons, and they are talking offset rear wheel in that link... ;D ;)
Don't get me wrong Moe, Frank and I have been sparring partners for years, he's a straight line boy, I like corners and good handling motorcycles, I don't dislike him one bit, Infact, I've bought some very nice parts he's made and would do so again without a problem. By the way, that PDF just confirms exactly what TIA and I've said..

Quote
Wheels that are not in alignment can cause handling problems, excessive tire wear and damage the drive belt/chain and
 pulleys. 

750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.