Topic: Your opinion ..how does a frame kit affect the bikes value?

[Swoop]

I know for a daily runner it makes sense....but what about a restored or refreshed bike that has more value?
Just curious whether to put one on my k0

Thanks
Steve

[greenjeans]

If it were me, and on a K0, I would not touch the frame.  If it's a rider, go for it.  Investment bike - leave alone.

[Stev-o]

If you want your K0 to appreciate to a high value, dont do it.

[Swoop]

Thank you gents. 

[DH]

Yup, once you cut it, its never the same. Rider/ rat, or non stock, or anything that isn't special, go for it.

[Stev-o]

My question is how does it affect handling? 

[Davez134]

My question is how does it affect handling?

I agree with everyone's assessment about value. As far as handling, I've had a 72 750 wits and without and have noticed no difference in handling or feel. (As long as every piece that was cut is still braced afterward) Just my personal experience.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I think the frame kit will not adversely affect value of any non-restoration bike, and will add utility to the bike.

[PeWe]

For any std CB750 restored to OEM shape, the frame does not need the frame kit. Just restore and put it together. Different with a modified engine and need of lifting valve cover, head and cylinder for changes and updates.
I did it when I had to lift head and replace cyl studs. I did not want to pull engine again after a few months since mounting it. I have had good use of it.
Franks (754) kit is good when it can be done when really needed whith engine and carbs still mounted. No welding and painting

[firebane]

My issue with frame kits is the damn cost. I realize that a person is making it and between parts, labor and time that it adds up. But $200 for a frame kit is also a rather large chunk of change and if someone is skilled enough and has the tools it can be done quite easily.

Regarding value.. I echo the same thoughts... If the bike is completely original and never been touched or cut... then don't do it.

[PeWe]

200 is not much if you can avoid puliing the engine for a small job as lifting the valve cover and head 2-3 times. It's rather cheap when pulling engine will bring drain oil and fill with new and new filter. With frame kit not needed.  I pulled my engine out of the frame after I had removed, head, cylinder and cyl studs and clutch. Easy to lift engine with a strap around the case and lift it out of frame alone. I friend helped me to avoid cracking my back when lift the case up on the work bench. Much more space when upper fram tubes are off.

Before frame kit I pulled engine several times, did the job and in with it again. Frame kit for repeated work.

Wait with frame kit. Order from Frank when you need to lift the valve cover urgently.

[firebane]

200 is not much if you can avoid puliing the engine for a small job as lifting the valve cover and head 2-3 times. It's rather cheap when pulling engine will bring drain oil and fill with new and new filter. With frame kit not needed.  I pulled my engine out of the frame after I had removed, head, cylinder and cyl studs and clutch. Easy to lift engine with a strap around the case and lift it out of frame alone. I friend helped me to avoid cracking my back when lift the case up on the work bench. Much more space when upper fram tubes are off.

Before frame kit I pulled engine several times, did the job and in with it again. Frame kit for repeated work.

Wait with frame kit. Order from Frank when you need to lift the valve cover urgently.

I spoke to Frank about the frame kit and I decided to do it myself because I had to pull my valve cover badly and because of the cost I will be doing it myself.

[Bodi]

As a general rule, any modifications will reduce the value of a classic bike.
An iron clad rule - "hot rod" modifications will never increase resale value to equal their cost. On any bike.

[Retro Rocket]

My question is how does it affect handling?

Thats a good question Steve, everyone seems to be hung up on the frame cuts, with the bolted or clamped in sections, this isn't a problem, the problem lies in the cross brace that ties the 3 rails together, this is the important bit, look at a boldor or GS1000/1100 frame and see the cross bracing in this area, they were much better frames.

[Stev-o]

My question is how does it affect handling?

I agree with everyone's assessment about value. As far as handling, I've had a 72 750 wits and without and have noticed no difference in handling or feel. (As long as every piece that was cut is still braced afterward) Just my personal experience.

Good info, thanks Dave. Which kit did you use?

My question is how does it affect handling?

Thats a good question Steve, everyone seems to be hung up on the frame cuts, with the bolted or clamped in sections, this isn't a problem, the problem lies in the cross brace that ties the 3 rails together, this is the important bit, look at a boldor or GS1000/1100 frame and see the cross bracing in this area, they were much better frames.

Agreed, the GS had better frames, larger motors and more of a "sport bike" than the CB
[no offence intended!].

Will the frame twist with the kit?   I dont have much choice, my current project came to me with what I call a "shade tree kit"!



Yes, they took pipes and bolted it on. And didnt tie in in at all.

My plan is to acquire parts of another frame and install "Franks Kit".

[Retro Rocket]

My question is how does it affect handling?

I agree with everyone's assessment about value. As far as handling, I've had a 72 750 wits and without and have noticed no difference in handling or feel. (As long as every piece that was cut is still braced afterward) Just my personal experience.

Good info, thanks Dave. Which kit did you use?

My question is how does it affect handling?

Thats a good question Steve, everyone seems to be hung up on the frame cuts, with the bolted or clamped in sections, this isn't a problem, the problem lies in the cross brace that ties the 3 rails together, this is the important bit, look at a boldor or GS1000/1100 frame and see the cross bracing in this area, they were much better frames.

Agreed, the GS had better frames, larger motors and more of a "sport bike" than the CB
[no offence intended!].

Will the frame twist with the kit?   I dont have much choice, my current project came to me with what I call a "shade tree kit"!



Yes, they took pipes and bolted it on. And didnt tie in in at all.

My plan is to acquire parts of another frame and install "Franks Kit".

Go ahead and use one Steve, I'd fix the cross brace. I think, as far as using these kits on the street, you'd be hard pressed to fell any differences in handling, I think a good rider pushing very hard on a track might feel some difference but on the road, I doubt it... Its my anal retentiveness that makes me think about these things...

[Davez134]

My question is how does it affect handling?

I agree with everyone's assessment about value. As far as handling, I've had a 72 750 wits and without and have noticed no difference in handling or feel. (As long as every piece that was cut is still braced afterward) Just my personal experience.

Good info, thanks Dave. Which kit did you use?

My question is how does it affect handling?

Thats a good question Steve, everyone seems to be hung up on the frame cuts, with the bolted or clamped in sections, this isn't a problem, the problem lies in the cross brace that ties the 3 rails together, this is the important bit, look at a boldor or GS1000/1100 frame and see the cross bracing in this area, they were much better frames.

Agreed, the GS had better frames, larger motors and more of a "sport bike" than the CB
[no offence intended!].

Will the frame twist with the kit?   I dont have much choice, my current project came to me with what I call a "shade tree kit"!



Yes, they took pipes and bolted it on. And didnt tie in in at all.

My plan is to acquire parts of another frame and install "Franks Kit".

I used the Gordon Kit. Mainly because I was starting with a bare frame and am a competent welder, so it was easy for me. As stated, maintaining the triangular bracing is a must for me.

(Triangle braces not yet installed in this pic, I was just too excited to take the picture )



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stev-o]

Looks great Dave.  I've had a Gordans Kit, it was very well made.  I have Franks Kit on the shelf, so I'm going with that one. It's not a race bike, so I'm sure it will be fine.

[Davez134]

Yeah, with the right size tubing, franks kit would be an easy install. You could also get some angle steel and remake that hacked up center bracing. I'm sure it will turn out great

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Unless you are doing a Concours restoration it should NOT have a negative valuation and potentially positive but not likely.

[calj737]

Unless you are doing a Concours restoration it should NOT have a negative valuation and potentially positive but not likely.

I think Ed Morris would refute that, Jerry. With all the work he put in on his, I believe he told me he had a buyer for his price, until the buyer realized a frame kit was installed. Deal off completely at that point. Restoration= No kit. Daily Driver=Do what you please. The kit will definitely damage the value of a restoration. But they are a great asset to bikes you intend to own, use, and service.

And, making a frame kit takes a fair bit of time to do it properly. $200 is pretty reasonable unless you have the skills and machinery to do them yourself.

[seanbarney41]

Ironically, this chopper build thread, provides some insight into why I think a frame kit of any kind is always a bad idea (except perhaps for a drag race only bike).  Its a really cool thread anyway, so I will link the pertinent page for your perusal...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,68952.75.html

[BPellerine]

Ironically, this chopper build thread, provides some insight into why I think a frame kit of any kind is always a bad idea (except perhaps for a drag race only bike).  Its a really cool thread anyway, so I will link the pertinent page for your perusal...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,68952.75.html

sean,I read that build thread,and one must remember that the front tubes were cut therefore making the rear appear really weak,I am not advocating anyone taking the top rails out,but I drove my bike for awhile wihtout top rails and no real diff while riding at legal speeds,if you were putting a lot of side pressure on the frame it would be flexable I think.a frame kit would at least be as strong as the original if done right but the resto guys do not like that stuff at all.billp

[seanbarney41]

Ironically, this chopper build thread, provides some insight into why I think a frame kit of any kind is always a bad idea (except perhaps for a drag race only bike).  Its a really cool thread anyway, so I will link the pertinent page for your perusal...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,68952.75.html

sean,I read that build thread,and one must remember that the front tubes were cut therefore making the rear appear really weak,I am not advocating anyone taking the top rails out,but I drove my bike for awhile wihtout top rails and no real diff while riding at legal speeds,if you were putting a lot of side pressure on the frame it would be flexable I think.a frame kit would at least be as strong as the original if done right but the resto guys do not like that stuff at all.billp

Your probably right, but I still ain't buying it.

[mystic_1]

Sean I'm guessing you're referring to my comments in the following post:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,68952.msg1783791.html#msg1783791

Just to expound a but more about the blasphemy I had just conducted upon my frame, the point where the main backbone tube meets the cross brace at the front of the seat, is all just made of sheet metal.  There are two pieces that form this joint, an upper and a lower plate, which are shaped around the auxiliary backbone rails and the main backbone end, then welded in place.  This is what was bending when I was doing the above, you'll probably be able to see the deflection in these pieces in later pics.

And this is the main problem with cutting out the auxiliary backbone rails - they're not really "auxiliary."

They are, in fact, far far stronger than the way the main backbone tube is "secured" at its end!!!

When you remove these, the only thing holding the backbone together is the sheet metal shape described above.  Most of the bottom plate isn't even there, there's large ventilation openings down there to keep water from accumulating inside the gusset.

Go on out to your bike and knock on these pieces with your knuckles, and then tell me if that's the only thing you'd like to have holding your steering head in place.

Me neither.

mystic_1

I have definitely come to believe that the side rails in the backbone contribute a significant percentage of the backbone's strength.  Without them, the rear of the backbone tube is only held in place by the sheet metal gussets, not a particularly strong or rigid joint IMHO.  That's why I welded mine back in after the changes, and I'm betting (hoping ) that it's at least as rigid as stock up there again. 

I think with the bolted in frame kits you're loosing some rigidity since a bolted connection is rarely as rigid as a welded connection, at least not in all planes of force.  How much weaker than stock is it?  I think that's impossible to say without some pretty serious maths.

mystic_1

[seanbarney41]

yup

[Davez134]

Hey, all I know is after 3000 miles ridden hard with a hopped up motor: My frame is straight, bike feels great in corners, looks great, and took me only a few hours to fix a stupid "oops" on a leaky base gasket. But, I still agree that if you are putting a lot of $$ into an early bike for the purposes of making money or selling don't do it. (Not like you would have to pull the motor anyways after selling)

[754]

 One thing that should be considered is.. how hard is it to reverse it after the frame gets cut...

[Retro Rocket]

One thing that should be considered is.. how hard is it to reverse it after the frame gets cut...

Yours would be a piece of cake to reverse if needed...

[edwardmorris]

I haven't checked in a while, but I don't think Gordon's kit costs $200 (maybe close to that including welding costs?). Like Cal pointed out, I had a buyer head over heels for my K2 but almost cried when I told him that I HAD TO install the kit because not only did the PO chop up the frame, he also threw away the tubing . Thankfully I haven't had to do any engine rework after 1000+ city/twisty/highway riding mix. No issues with handling or any frame bending etc. Gordon's kit installs and blends away almost seamlessly. The purists will not want the kit, but riders intending to log miles and do maintenance will appreciate it. When I was working on the K2, there was another build progressing alongside for a nice sandcast, everything was left intact, and after a few miles it developed that dreaded puck leak. No other option besides pulling the engine to fix it. For a sandcast, that would be totally worth it, but seeing that happen made the decision easy for my K3. The K3's frame was intact, but I did cut it and installed Gordon's kit just for that worst case scenario of having to redo something. Thankfully, the K2 hasn't needed it yet, and hopefully the K3 never will. Just in case either of them do, at least I know the kit will simplify the repair.

[PeWe]

About Gordons kit. There is same design sold here for 160 + shipping
http://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/chassis-products-honda-cb750-sohc-1969-1978-andrews-motorsports-custom-frame-tube-connectors/

[Don R]

On my K0 Sandcast, never. On my K0 hot rod absolutely! The hot rod has the wrong engine and was hacked by a PO already. I cut up a wrecked frame and put it back with a gordons kit. I made thick splices for the angles, sanded the mating side to match the frame members and tapped them so it didn't need nuts. they snuggle right in there. I'd say it is as strong as a stock one.

[PeWe]

I was also against cutting the frame for a few years ago. "Never cut my frame and destroy it...." I changed my mind and have had good use of it and will in the future. I have not noticed any weakness in frame.
I'll never sell my bike anyway when I want to continue to use it and remember the long history we have together. I'll never get the money back invested in it either.
I have to downgrade the engine, new sleeves and 736 pistons, not ported head with std valves, original cam and std carbs....in with std crank w rods which I upgrade this winter....std bar with electrical wirings routed inside.....
The rims are not OEM either, I have replaced them twice to D.I.D in std sizes

It is a std CB750 in OEM shape looking like new that is worth most. I see that eBay.co.uk have CB750's they want 10.000-20.000 pounds for (14.000 - 28.000 USD)
CB750K2, K6 in really good OEM shape are sometimes for sale here 8000-10.000 USD. A cut frame is probably not accepted by the OEM guys.

I get more and more parts over that can be used on another CB750. I need a cheap I can restore in OEM shape.
 I have NOS front- rear fenders and seat in boxes waiting to be used. Bought when still available

[calj737]

If we are digressing to strength considerations, nearly every modern motorcycle uses a bolted on subframe. If you think that a mechanical connection is insufficient or inferior, then you know very little about structural strengths. Franks kit, Gordons kit, or any variation, will not diminish the strength of the frame in any measurable way. Period. And subframes take a lot more stress than 2 rails along a backbone.

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but you should dismiss your argument for not installing a frame kit based upon strength issues.

[edwardmorris]

+1.

IINM, Gordon's design is based on a large engine Kawi.

[mystic_1]

I think Gordon's kit is the cream of the crop when it comes to these things.  It was carefully designed and thought out, probably with strength and rigidity in mind.


As to the general topic of bolted connections and their strength compared to welded connections, that's going to come down to design.  For instance:



mystic_1

[RRRToolSolutions]

Guys, I personally would not modify the frame if I were looking at this bike as an investment for current/future value. I would concentrate on getting it built/restored and leaving it alone.

If however he is going to ride it, maintain it, and plans to keep it forever - I would....well you know.

Now as to which one, Frank and I get along. I recognize and respect that his design solves the same problem mine does, just in different ways. Not everyone has access to or is a welder. Frank's external clamps work around the tubing circumference. Mine weld inside the tubing and are all but invisible once installed - a critical attribute that I had to have in my K4 build. I also wanted to use my stock ignition switch and did not want any of this to be seen unless the tank was fully removed.

My solution came to me in my own garage after my sealing pucks started leaking and I got worried that I would soon grenade my engine once the porting and cam were added. Sitting in front of me were my 2000 ZRX1100 and 2003 1500 Nomad - two bikes much heavier and longer tubing than my Honda's frame rails. They both utilized 1/2 clam shell bolt-in frame rails on their entire right sides for engine removal. My kits took their inspiration from those two Kawasaki's frames.

Best Regards, Gordon/RTS

http://www.rrrtoolsolutions.com/index.php

[disco]

Hi Guys,

Firstly I agree with Mystic that Gordon's kit is a 'top shelf' bit of kit. It's so good that it appears to be 'factory'.

I would regard a well thought out & well installed frame kit to be a bit like a Resto-mod. For me it adds value & practicality.

I guess it's down to individual choice.....would I choose an original '69 Mustang that looks good but handles #$%*e or one that has sensible mods underneath that make it great to own/drive? Give me the Resto-modded Mustang any day!

here's one of my K2 project bikes (Black Betty) with Gordon's frame kit.

[Stev-o]

As to the general topic of bolted connections and their strength compared to welded connections, that's going to come down to design.  For instance:

This is obviously a bad frame kit.  Good news is Bobco has parts for me so I can put a proper frame kit on it.