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Offline terrorshark

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Battery draining insanely fast
« on: April 06, 2016, 03:24:04 pm »
75 cb550. Completely custom wiring. Not my first wiring job by any means. But I am entirely lost and could really use some help.

Turn the key and the battery drains faster than I have ever seen which leads me to believe there is something grounded funny but I have gone through the wiring with a fine tooth comb and can't find anything.
Traced it to my dynatek ignition. When the power to the dynatek is plugged in it drains. Unplugged the battery will hold just fine.
I have the dynatek wired into my hot wire coming from the on position on the 3 position ignition switch.
Running a gel battery.
Tried two regulator/rectifiers
Tried complete other charging system.

This is killing me and any help would be great.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 06:14:07 pm »
 Where the hell is Cal when we need him  :D

Offline scottly

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 06:27:47 pm »
With the Dyna disconnected and the headlight on, how fast does the battery drain? Just as fast, or even faster?
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 07:46:19 pm »
Dynas have gotten a bad reputation in recent years.  You may want to take the unit off and bench test it. Failing that reinstall the points and see if you get the same draw. Then you know it it is your wiring or the Dyna.
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Offline Gene

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 08:05:04 pm »
Where the hell is Cal when we need him  :D

Poor man is busy . . . too many electrical questions.
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Offline CB650CPastor

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 08:17:51 pm »
Are you sure the battery is good?
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Offline Garage_guy_chris

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 11:26:32 pm »
Im with CB650CPastor if its draining like you describe through anything other than the starter wires you would be melting wiring. Sulfated or bad batteries will often voltage test just fine but when a load is hooked up the voltage will drop very fast. I would power up something like a headlight bulb and see what kinda voltage drop you get. You also may be able to get somewhere like autozone to test the battery for you.
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Online PeWe

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 11:43:02 pm »
Dyna 3 ohms coils? (Green)
 I had those for a test ride on my CB750, went back to the dealer and changed to Dyna 5 ohms (black) since the battery drained very quick. After that no problem.

I rode to a friend 25 km away with light on, went back with headlight off. Engine could just be started by the electric starter when back, I heard how wek the power was. The rpm was constantly 5-9000 rpms so the charging system was charging.

This made me to think about the power consumption, replaced the H4 headlight (60/55W) with very bright H4 LED (30W). Installed a LED that indicate the voltage when engine is running (charging) and when parked so I'll never will get a bad surprise.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2016, 01:10:39 am »
Hmmmnnn, I do remember Hondaman saying that a Dyna S and 3 Ohm coils are too much of a draw for a 550's charging system, so the PO may need to use some Dyna 5 Ohm coils and fit a headlight on/off switch like the rest of the free world got way back when. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2016, 04:32:49 am »
Running a gel battery. Specifically, what battery? Not all batteries are created equal
Tried two regulator/rectifiers Brands and models please?
Tried complete other charging system. There's a pretty simple flowchart for troubleshooting the electrical system to identify either damaged components, or faulty wiring. I use this: http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

This is killing me and any help would be great. ...And your battery apparently  ;)
A coupe of things: the 550 charging system doesn't produce a "surplus" charge until the motor is revving above ~2,500 RPMS. So, you should fire the motor, and take a voltage reading at the battery with the motor at 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 and 5,000 and record those voltages. You should see your bike charge up to 13.8-14.4v at 4-5,000.

Also, charge your battery fully. Let it rest for about 2 hours, then take a voltage reading from it with no drain. What is the voltage. Some batteries if heavily discharged, won't recover or don't recover fully. This is more applicable to Lithiums, but any battery can be damaged by repetitive discharges.

If you are encountering this "discharge" during wiring and testing, a good practice is to remove the headlight fuse so you can continue to test your system without taxing the battery. Also, what wattage headlight are you running? Many replace their stock unit with too high a wattage modern bulb and encounter exactly what you've described.

Lastly, its true the Dynatek Green coils (3 Ohms) further tax the charging system. Black (5 Ohm) coils perform better on our bikes.
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Offline przjohn

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2016, 06:10:57 am »
I had the Dyna on a CB400F build last year with the Dynatek 3 Ohm coils and had to remove it and go back to points for the same reason. The Dynatek literature says you need minimum 3 Ohm Coils but it appears that number should be 5. My theory is because the Hall Effect Sensor system used on the Dynatek has no circuitry to allow for a length of open circuit time after firing, it just opens and then closes. This causes current to continue to flow through the coil until the next time the sensor triggers. With that length of time, and the fact that with lower Ohm Coils more current flows, the charging system cannot keep up, especially at low revs. The ignition I am using on a current CB750F build, (figures I can't remember the name but I think I got it from DSS) uses the same Hall Effect Sensor but it keeps the circuit open for 1/2 revolution of the crank before closing again compared to just closing again once the sensor has passed it's mark. So now the coils get about have the current flow time. That's my theory anyway, maybe somebody else could let me know if that holds water.
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2016, 06:28:08 am »
Currently a ricks regulator on the bike. Tried 2 of them so it seems strange that both would fail
Running 5 ohm coils
Battery is good and is a ballistic evo 2.
Had the bike all over the map with revs
It seems like it's charging it just can't keep up with the drain
A little more troubleshooting....
Disconnected the dynatek and put the points plate on. Same thing
I can have power going to my dynatek with no battery drain but the second I plug in the coils it's starts draining the battery. This leads me to believe that there is something goofy going on with the coils or wiring to the coils.
I have headlight and tail light running of one side of my ignition switch and coils and dynatek power running off the other side. As its a three position switch.

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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 08:19:31 am »
That's good information, but not specific enough data. Please post exact meter-based readings from your battery when performing the recommended tasks.

Otherwise it's all conjecture on the cause. You're right though, 2 failed Rick's units points to the problem being elsewhere.
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Offline przjohn

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 08:21:12 am »
When you say it drains fast, how fast? Is it like seconds till the battery is dead or is it 25 miles of riding?

Your Ballistic is a Lithium Battery and not a Gel Battery.

https://www.ballisticparts.com/category.php?cPath=141


 Once they are discharged beyond a certain voltage, meaning dead, they are NG. The characteristic trait of this is a Lithium battery that will die very quickly after charging. I know because I had some heated grips  that were wired directly to the battery and forgot to turn off the switch on a KTM, that battery never came back and would die quickly when recharged on a Lithium charger.

You say the wiring is custom. Is the headlight now switched or does it come on with the ignition as stock? If it is switched does the battery die with just the headlight and no ignition circuit hooked up? If it does that would point to a bad battery.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 08:27:44 am by przjohn »
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 08:25:24 am »
Is your battery 4 or 8 cell?
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2016, 10:30:40 am »
So
Battery drains within seconds. I'd say 30 to a minute and its down to 2 volts from 12
Battery is an 8 cell
Bike is wired with a switch for the lights
With ignition off no issues.
Second the ignition is turned on even without the bike running the battery starts draining
Probably a volt every 2-3 seconds
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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2016, 10:38:51 am »
Keep control over the battery voltage level and charging with this little gadget. I installed it and have full control. I see when the charging level is too low. Driving low speed and headlight on will indicate orange. Twist the throttle over 4500 rpms and LED turns to green. I'll see when I can switch off headlight daytime and use parking light only. It blinks every 2 sec when ignition is off which look like an alarm. Battery fine as long as it blink green. Easy too see when it need to be fed during the long rest winter time.
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 10:44:00 am by PeWe »
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Offline nicks2319

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2016, 10:46:44 am »
Ballistic will tell you that if you fully discharge their batteries, consider them dead, and dispose of them. +1 to testing with another battery. I made the mistake of bringing one of my ballistics close to that voltage and it killed it. Ballistic was nice enough to replace it for me. I no longer use them unless I know 100% that the charging system is perfect.

Offline Duanob

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2016, 11:12:42 am »
So
Battery drains within seconds. I'd say 30 to a minute and its down to 2 volts from 12
Battery is an 8 cell
Bike is wired with a switch for the lights
With ignition off no issues.
Second the ignition is turned on even without the bike running the battery starts draining
Probably a volt every 2-3 seconds

Sounds like a battery issue to me. I've never seen another situation on one of these bikes wherethe wiring or charging problem will drain a charged battery in good condition that fast. Try another battery and report back.
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Offline przjohn

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2016, 11:29:41 am »
It sounds like the battery to me too. It is doing exactly what Lithiums do that have been discharged. Did you just buy the battery? Maybe as nicks1239 says they will give you a new one. After that you have to determine what is draining it.
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2016, 04:16:53 pm »
+5 on bad battery
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2016, 11:20:49 am »
Ok so here are some updates.
Ditched the lithium went to a gel battery.

Bike is not charging at all. Tested the reg/rec. seems great. Continuity between yellow wires.
Tested positive and neg and we are good on both
Tested field coil and it was around 4.5 ohms when disconnected from the reg/rec. when connected it tests 0 ohms but no bad ground.
At a total loss here so any help would be great.
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Offline nicks2319

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2016, 11:36:16 am »
This gets posted a lot

Quote
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2016, 03:24:46 pm »
Ok so here are some updates.
Ditched the lithium went to a gel battery.

Bike is not charging at all. Tested the reg/rec. seems great. Continuity between yellow wires.
Tested positive and neg and we are good on both
Tested field coil and it was around 4.5 ohms when disconnected from the reg/rec. when connected it tests 0 ohms but no bad ground.
At a total loss here so any help would be great.
Can you please post a picture of how the Ricks is wired into your bike, AND a picture of the stator output plug connections (the large 8-way plastic plug).
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2016, 11:02:33 am »
Bike has a custom wire harness so no more plastic plugs.
However. I can tell you exactly where all the wires go.

Three yellow wires are going into the three yellow wires in the rectifier.
Red wire from reg/rec is going to a three way ignition same port as battery
Green wire is grounded
Black wire is going to three way ignition when power is turned on
Smaller green wire is going to green wire from field coil
White wire is going to white wire from field coil.
 
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2016, 12:31:32 pm »
And using a meter, what voltage do you have at the battery while running and rpms at 4,000?

And what voltage do you get on Red from R/R with bike running? Then please tell me what voltage on R/R Black with motor running. Use the loose Green as your ground for the R/R tests please.
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2016, 03:06:36 pm »
At the battery I have 12.4 without lights. 11.9 with headlight.

Red wire. 12.4 volts
Black wire. 12.4 volts
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2016, 03:14:48 pm »
With those reported voltages, you are charging. Your battery is showing the exact voltage as the R/R.

And the voltages listed for Red and Black are with bike running and at 4,000 RPMs?
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Offline terrorshark

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2016, 03:38:34 pm »
Yes. Bike running at 4K and higher. No change in voltage
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Offline calj737

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2016, 03:57:12 pm »
Willing to test something? If so, move the RED from the R/R directly to the battery POS terminal. The way you have it absolutely should not matter (from ymy r description) but as a point of confirmation, I'd rule out an issue with it.

And you have good, clean metal grounds for the R/R GREEN and battery ground? Pinching the motor and frame for battery ground like stock?
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Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2018, 04:11:50 am »
Keep control over the battery voltage level and charging with this little gadget. I installed it and have full control. I see when the charging level is too low. Driving low speed and headlight on will indicate orange. Twist the throttle over 4500 rpms and LED turns to green. I'll see when I can switch off headlight daytime and use parking light only. It blinks every 2 sec when ignition is off which look like an alarm. Battery fine as long as it blink green. Easy too see when it need to be fed during the long rest winter time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Motorcycle-Battery-Alternator-Charge-monitor-level-indicator-warning-bike-G-/200826330214
Old photo below. Bike look better now with black pilot lamp dash board, upper tripple and drag bar

PeWe,
I'm bringing this up cos I followed the link you gave. The proce of this ting on Ebay is £1,117.99!!! That surely can't be correct?
CB750 K2 - A work in progress
CB750 K1 - The less, said the better!
CB450 K1 - It's black.
CB400F Supersport - It's rusty!

Offline Little_Phil

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2018, 07:09:32 am »
Last sales were £17.99. Dodgy keyboard?

Online PeWe

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Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2018, 10:30:08 am »
Keep control over the battery voltage level and charging with this little gadget. I installed it and have full control. I see when the charging level is too low. Driving low speed and headlight on will indicate orange. Twist the throttle over 4500 rpms and LED turns to green. I'll see when I can switch off headlight daytime and use parking light only. It blinks every 2 sec when ignition is off which look like an alarm. Battery fine as long as it blink green. Easy too see when it need to be fed during the long rest winter time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Motorcycle-Battery-Alternator-Charge-monitor-level-indicator-warning-bike-G-/200826330214
Old photo below. Bike look better now with black pilot lamp dash board, upper tripple and drag bar

PeWe,
I'm bringing this up cos I followed the link you gave. The proce of this ting on Ebay is £1,117.99!!! That surely can't be correct?
Yes, thats a lot- It must be something wrong with that one.
I paid around £20.. Can be 17.99 + shipping as little Little_Phil seen. The seller will probably fix that when back Oct 14.
This gadget is really useful. recommended buy when price is correct again.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 04:29:24 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76 1005cc JMR Billet block.
CB750 K2-75 stock looking project started 2017

Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 11:17:32 pm »
The same guy does have others available at a more affordable price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-12v-Battery-Voltage-monitor-alternator-Charge-warning-lamp-LED/201810446914?hash=item2efcd70a42:g:oUUAAMXQydtTOs8s

However this one needs a hole drilled it seems.
CB750 K2 - A work in progress
CB750 K1 - The less, said the better!
CB450 K1 - It's black.
CB400F Supersport - It's rusty!

Offline Bodi

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2018, 04:16:18 am »
"continuity between yellow wires" means what? Ther should be NO continuity between the yellow wires. Each yellw should have continuity (or low resistance, or roughly 0.5v on diode test) to either the big green  or the red wire with the meter leads one way around (no connection or diode junction to the other output wire) and opposite with leads swapped.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Battery draining insanely fast
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2018, 12:52:09 pm »
One of your coils could be bad even though it ohms out ok on the bench when cold. Had one that went south and was draining a battery. Telltale sign is it heats up very quickly when you turn the ignition on without firing it up.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

 

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