Author Topic: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500  (Read 3183 times)

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Offline tennesseebreeze

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Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« on: April 13, 2016, 06:28:06 AM »
So, I finally got my bike running well, but discovered some problems that need to be addressed. I've got a pretty severe oil leak coming from the cylinder head, as well as the shifter seal. Frankly, I'm surprised because I was diligent about how I assembled the engine. I had the cylinder head checked and it was flat. My machinist gave it a I have a new gasket, and I torqued down the head to spec, tightening it in the pattern the manual recommends. I'm at a loss as to what could have gone wrong. The shifter seal leak is easy in comparison and I've already ordered a replacement.

Another problem is the chain. It's a brand new D.I.D roller and I can not keep it tightened. The axle is not budging- the tensioner bolts are holding tight, but every time I ride the chain becomes loose. Is it possible it's stretching that much, that fast?

I did dodge a bullet with another problem. There was some loud valve noise, so I opened it up for a valve readjustment. In the #4 intake I discovered the set nut on the tappet had completely come off and the adjuster screw was hanging on by the skin of it's teeth, held in only because it was hitting the tappet cover. The nut was sitting down in the chamber next to the valve spring. I fished it out and adjusted all the valves. Unsurprisingly, it runs a lot better!

F*ck me.
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2016, 06:49:21 AM »
I did torque it down in two steps basically. I had torqued it down originally, then remembered I hadn't put thread lock on the cam sprocket bolts. When I opened it again I backed the nuts off and torqued it again.

As for the pucks (if you are referring to the two pins on the outer portion of the head that align it and carry oil), the are not new and do not have sealant on them. What sealant should I use and what is the method of application?
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Online Stev-o

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2016, 06:50:43 AM »
+1... replace "pucks"? Betting no.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 06:52:11 AM »
+1... replace "pucks"? Betting no.

Sorry, what do you mean?
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline 540nova

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Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 06:54:51 AM »
Calj737 gave good advice, but I'm skeptical of loosening the head bolts before retorquing. He knows much more than I about these bikes, but that would be a deviation from normal mechanical practice, of retorquing after an overnight sit. Personally, I'd retorque without loosening. Again, I defer to his wisdom, and he probably knows something about this that I'm not aware of. I'm going by my experience as an aircraft mechanic and car mechanic. I'd welcome his response to why you would loosen first.


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« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 06:58:52 AM by 540nova »

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 06:55:39 AM »
Oh, okay. You said "betting no". Are you saying you don't think those are the problem? Those were not brand new, but I got them from a low milage bike and they were pliable. I did not put sealant on them.
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2016, 07:03:11 AM »
Stev-o is implying that this is a common source of leaks, and sealant is advised.

Retorquing head nuts is designed to remove any stretch, plus to fully compress the gasket which does take a bit of time to occur. The stock gasket is almost .050 thick so under torque, you'll get some loose nuts, even re-using the stock studs. It's a better safe than sorry approach that has yet to fail me.

Many motors use different types of studs that can't be re-torqued, but ours do not.

Makes sense. Those seals had no cracks and were stretchy. I went by the manual which, as far as I remember did not call for sealant. But it makes sense that that would be a weak spot for leaks. Would high temp silicon do the trick?
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline 540nova

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 07:10:09 AM »
Calj737, I agree fully about retorquing, but you said back off the nuts first, then retorque. It's the loosening part I was questioning. That would defeat the purpose, in my experience. But hey, if it works for you, and for all I know, maybe that's what Honda recommends, though it's new to me, after wrenching for 40 years.


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Online Stev-o

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2016, 07:21:50 AM »
Oh, okay. You said "betting no".

I bet no that you did not replace the pucks.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline flybox1

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 07:29:41 AM »
Oh, okay. You said "betting no".

I bet no that you did not replace the pucks.
They should be replaced, and sealed.  Threebond 1184 works well here.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 07:41:26 AM »
Source for new ones?
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline flybox1

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 07:46:51 AM »
IIRC, they should be .03"-.04" taller than their respective recess for adequate seal.
I ordered more than I needed and used the tallest ones.

Honda OEM part number:  91318-300-013
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91318-300-013.html
http://4into1.com/vesrah-sealing-rubber-ab-1001-honda-cb500-cb550-cb650-cb750/
https://www.z1enterprises.com/product/91318-300-013



'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline przjohn

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 07:49:19 AM »
Oh, okay. You said "betting no". Are you saying you don't think those are the problem? Those were not brand new, but I got them from a low milage bike and they were pliable. I did not put sealant on them.

Bingo! We have a winner. I have to agree with the other guys, this is most likely your leak source. Get new ones and use the non hardening Permatex that Hondaman recommends in his book.
I like poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking at dead things with a stick.

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 07:53:17 AM »
Thank you for the links flybox. I'll get those ordered right away. As for the drive chain issue I'm having- that's a whole other mystery. I had a 400 that kept tearing up chains. I couldn't keep the thing tightened. It turned out that the swingarm was bent so when the wheel turned it went from tight to loose, tight to loose, eating up the sprocket as it did. I don't know if that's what's happening here, but that's a weird problem to have twice.
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100

Offline evanphi

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 07:57:32 AM »
IIRC, they should be .03"-.04" taller than their respective recess for adequate seal.
I ordered more than I needed and used the tallest ones.

Honda OEM part number:  91318-300-013
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91318-300-013.html
http://4into1.com/vesrah-sealing-rubber-ab-1001-honda-cb500-cb550-cb650-cb750/
https://www.z1enterprises.com/product/91318-300-013



To expand on the first part of this, you can cut out shims (preferably brass) to make sure they are tall enough.

Got some more things ticked off "the list"...

I made some shims out of gasket material to get adequate compression of my stud pucks. Gasket material is 0.75mm, cut in 1" circles.

with the crop of too-thin head seals we keep seeing, here is a way you can check the ones you got in your gasket kit (or elsewhere, like PartsNmore or CB750Supply, etc.).

First, check the step depth of the head hole. Then, check the thickness of your seal. You need at LEAST .030" compression, .040" is better. The too-thin ones are only about .005" thicker, which won't seal when the head heats up and the hole becomes deeper.

The pics tell the story!




This would have resulted in only 0.010" of compression. Not enough!






Boom! 0.040" thicker than the recess!
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline evanphi

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 08:06:24 AM »
As far as your chain losing all slack....

Check the rear brake stay, and make sure the special bolts are the correct size and the holes are not rounded out. If the holes are rounded it allows for the brake drum to shift around, but it was also causing me lots of chain slack.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,70403.0.html
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline tennesseebreeze

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Re: Joy turns to sorrow- oil leak & more cb500
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 08:08:34 AM »
As far as your chain losing all slack....

Check the rear brake stay, and make sure the special bolts are the correct size and the holes are not rounded out. If the holes are rounded it allows for the brake drum to shift around, but it was also causing me lots of chain slack.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,70403.0.html

Hmmm. Good suggestion. I'll check that.
'79 CB750F, '73 CB500K2, '78 CB400A, '71 CL100