Author Topic: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!  (Read 2738 times)

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Offline 1SpeedD

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New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« on: April 28, 2016, 12:42:22 PM »
Howdy everyone!  I've been lurking for a little while now, mostly trying to solve issues on my own.  I picked up a 1979 Cb650 in pretty decent shape about a month and a half ago now.  I bought it with the impression that it didn't need a ton of work, just some focus on some idling issues.  Definitely not the case as I sit here now. 

To provide some background, when I bought the bike, cylinders 1 and 4 weren't firing, and the bike wouldn't idle on it's own, even with full choke.  I did a basic carb clean and replaced the spark plugs.  Cylinder 1 popped back into life and the bike would idle on it's own after a few minutes of warming up.  God knows what magic the PO did when he started the bike on two cylinders when showing me, but I still have a hell of a time getting the thing to start regularly sometimes with three.

What's killing me, and what almost led to me putting a 'free' tag on this bike yesterday is that I still have no clue if the timing is set remotely right, the carbs leak even after new gaskets, this bike has run on at most 3 cylinders since I bought it, and the LED turn signals are a purchase I'm beginning to regret.

So, I'll lay out the main issues that have been plaguing me.  Help with any/all is profoundly appreciated!!

---#1:Carbs.  I'm a professional bicycle mechanic, so I have a pretty solid mechanical aptitude and I understand the fundamentals of carbs, I guess.  I've got the PD50A Keihin carbs on this bike.  I replaced floats, and needle valves, made sure jets were clear.  I picked up a float bowl gasket kit from Dime City and the gaskets are significantly smaller than the old ones.  Shape and whatnot matches, and supposedly these are for this bike, but I can't help but be wary of smaller gaskets.  The float bowl in carb #1 leaks still.

---#2: Timing.  Since this bike isn't running well enough for dynamic timing, I need to set it statically. WHAT MARK EXACTLY DO I SET THE TIMING TO???  I understand 1-4, but there's a hash with a 'T', an 'I', two hashes with an 'F', and an 's'.  I've poured over forums, manuals, and common sense yet all seem to come short with an exact mark.  This is an exact thing, timing, so why does it seem so difficult to find an exact mark?  Reason #1 why I grab that extra beer right here...

---#3: Three cylinders.  I've checked electrics, replaced bad ignition coils, spark plugs...  I'm getting spark, float bowls all have fuel so assumably the cylinders are getting fuel.  I have had each cylinder firing at one point or another, but never all 4 at once.  It's killing me.

---#4:  LED turn signals...  Admittedly a desperate weak point in my abilities is electrics.  Normally I'm known for blowing fuses, circuit breakers, and creating fires.  So far I'm only down a handful of 10A fuses.  I replaced all my turn signals with LED signals, power differentials unbeknownst to me.  If I had known I would have kept the old stock signals...  SO, I wired everything as per the wiring diagram, pretty stoked on even that.  Now my front signals are always on, the rear are always off.  When I hit the turn signal switch, the front light on that side will turn off, the rear will turn on.  They won't flash.  I picked up a number of electronic flasher units at the auto store, but still nothing.  Do I need a motorcycle specific one that doesn't have a minimum draw?  Do I need resistors?  I know I need a beer.  Do I need to wire things in some non-stock way?


I understand I have a lot of independent issues going on here, but I figured one big post is better than 4 small ones.  That said, I'm on my knees here, appealing to your collective knowledge.  Thank you in advance!


p.s. here's a picture of the machine! My plans are sort of scrambler-ish/brat

Offline mrfish2

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2016, 05:49:01 AM »
---#1:Carbs.  I'm a professional bicycle mechanic, so I have a pretty solid mechanical aptitude and I understand the fundamentals of carbs, I guess.  I've got the PD50A Keihin carbs on this bike.  I replaced floats, and needle valves, made sure jets were clear.  I picked up a float bowl gasket kit from Dime City and the gaskets are significantly smaller than the old ones.  Shape and whatnot matches, and supposedly these are for this bike, but I can't help but be wary of smaller gaskets.  The float bowl in carb #1 leaks still.

Did you check the float height? Are they leaking from the gasket or the overflow tube?

---#2: Timing.  Since this bike isn't running well enough for dynamic timing, I need to set it statically. WHAT MARK EXACTLY DO I SET THE TIMING TO???  I understand 1-4, but there's a hash with a 'T', an 'I', two hashes with an 'F', and an 's'.  I've poured over forums, manuals, and common sense yet all seem to come short with an exact mark.  This is an exact thing, timing, so why does it seem so difficult to find an exact mark?  Reason #1 why I grab that extra beer right here...

The "F" mark, it stands for "Fire." "T" is for "Top Dead Center."

---#3: Three cylinders.  I've checked electrics, replaced bad ignition coils, spark plugs...  I'm getting spark, float bowls all have fuel so assumably the cylinders are getting fuel.  I have had each cylinder firing at one point or another, but never all 4 at once.  It's killing me.

You've got to have 3 things to run: spark, fuel, and compression. If you're sure you've got fuel then take the spark plug out of #4, leave it connected to the plug wire, and ground it to the head while hitting the starter. If you see a spark then you know electricals aren't the issue.

---#4:  LED turn signals...  Admittedly a desperate weak point in my abilities is electrics.  Normally I'm known for blowing fuses, circuit breakers, and creating fires.  So far I'm only down a handful of 10A fuses.  I replaced all my turn signals with LED signals, power differentials unbeknownst to me.  If I had known I would have kept the old stock signals...  SO, I wired everything as per the wiring diagram, pretty stoked on even that.  Now my front signals are always on, the rear are always off.  When I hit the turn signal switch, the front light on that side will turn off, the rear will turn on.  They won't flash.  I picked up a number of electronic flasher units at the auto store, but still nothing.  Do I need a motorcycle specific one that doesn't have a minimum draw?  Do I need resistors?  I know I need a beer.  Do I need to wire things in some non-stock way?

Others may chime in to the wiring, I'm no guru.

And welcome to the forum!
1976 CB550K            1979 XS1100
1980 CB650C - Sold

It's a little motor and likes having the tits revved off it.

Offline Gene

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2016, 02:08:47 PM »
Carb leak - if the floats are set correctly and everything is in working order (float needles etc.) then fuel should never reach the bowl gasket - hence so long as the gaskets fit the bowl, you should be ok.  Check your float height according to your manual using the method described.  I don't know 650's so I can't speak with authority on the matter, but I believe most of these carbs work about the same.
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Offline cb650

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2016, 09:57:44 PM »
where you located?
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline pmanning

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 02:31:03 PM »
My son and I chased carb leaking issues on an '81 CB650 and ultimately found that the leak was not from the float chambers but from failed "O" rings on the fuel supply "T" connectors between carbs 1 and 2, and 3 & 4.  If the bike sits unused for a long time these dry out, crack and leak copious quantities of gasoline down onto your crankcase.  Might be worth checking.

The stock front turn signals on that bike included running lights and turn signals so in addition to the ground wire there are two power wires, each for one of the elements in a two element bulb.  I don't remember off hand what color wire is for the running lights but the turn signal wires are light blue (left turn signal) and orange (right turn signal).  If your LED turn signals don't incorporate both functions you may have wire crossed among the ground, running light and turn signal wires.

In addition to carburetion and timing issues there is the matter of valve lash adjustment.  Are you sure you don't have valves being held open on the compression stroke?  It is not a common mistake but it happens and is an easy fix if out of adjustment.

Keep plugging away; use the beer to best advantage, and it will all come together.

Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 01:38:09 PM »
Thanks everyone for the replies!!

 I apologize for my delay, I was out of town and taking a break from the garage.

I've checked the electrics and each cylinder is getting spark, so I feel safe in ruling that out as a potential cause

The "T" junction fuel line at carb #1 might be a good place for me to start.  I set the float height, 12.5mm, so that shouldn't be an issue.  The gas is so clear it is truly difficult to pinpoint exactly where the carb is leaking from.  I suspected the smaller bowl gasket, but the bike had been sitting for a good while so the fuel line could very well be the culprit.  I think I'll also try flushing the #4 carb pilot jet passage again to see if that does anything.

And like I mentioned, electrical circuitry is definitely not a forté, but I'll check for crossed wires with the turn signals.  I also might just break down and buy 4 new incandescent lights.   

Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 01:56:02 PM »
@mrfish2   Thank you so much for the timing clarification!

@cb650    I'm in the Monterey Bay area, in California


Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 02:58:49 PM »
UPDATE:  Got the timing and turn signals sorted out thanks to all your help.  I've got a free, rainy weekend so carbs are coming off tomorrow.  I'm hoping some new pilot screws, a proper flushing, and fuel 'T' o-ring replacement solves the current issues. 

Offline CB650CPastor

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2016, 12:24:55 PM »
Did you remove the press-in slow jets and make sure they are cleared out? The hole through the center of those is tiny! Just spraying them with carb cleaner and compressed air may not clear them if the bike has been sitting. I carefully poke a guitar string through them. (I prefer the high 'E' string) I have seen cracked brass (internal) bowl overflow tubes causing a leak out the overflow tubes before - even if the fuel level is correct and the gasket is good.
Tim
Current:1980 Honda CB650C Custom, 1969 Toyota Corona Deluxe Sedan
Past: '07 Honda Rebel 250, '80 Yamaha XS1100 Special, '69 Honda CB160, '67 K15 Suzuki Hillbilly, 1971 VW Super Beetle...

Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 12:32:30 PM »
I haven't pulled the pressed in jets yet, only blasted them with air/carb cleaner.  Since my wrist is in a cast, I can go ahead and pull a string off one of my guitars and try to poke through the jet carefully.

I got cylinders 1/4 both firing, albeit a bit slower to warm up than 2/3.  Is that normal for them to be less hot initially? 

I'm going to check valves this week once I get the proper tools.

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 07:25:01 AM »
Check out the pic in this link.
http://siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=1107

These are your press-in slow jets. See those 4 (actually 8, if you count the other side) tiny holes perpendicular to the length of the jet? Those are what get blocked and cause problems. A wire up the bottom of the jets misses those holes.
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Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 11:59:01 AM »
Thanks for the info!  I just ordered a set of 4, so hopefully that will help out this weird idling on two cylinders issue.

Offline CB650CPastor

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 04:08:33 PM »
Check out the pic in this link.
http://siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=1107

These are your press-in slow jets. See those 4 (actually 8, if you count the other side) tiny holes perpendicular to the length of the jet? Those are what get blocked and cause problems. A wire up the bottom of the jets misses those holes.

Agreed that a wire straight up the jet misses those holes. That's why I mentioned he had to remove them to clean them properly. Having said that, I've never seen those side holes blocked in any carbs that I have rebuilt. It has always been the one through the middle since it is MANY times smaller than those. I suppose it is possible though in a really gummed up set of carbs. I don't really see a need to replace jets that are easily cleanable. I prefer to keep the stock ones.
Tim
Current:1980 Honda CB650C Custom, 1969 Toyota Corona Deluxe Sedan
Past: '07 Honda Rebel 250, '80 Yamaha XS1100 Special, '69 Honda CB160, '67 K15 Suzuki Hillbilly, 1971 VW Super Beetle...

Offline Flatlander80

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 06:03:17 PM »
I have a 1980 CB650, and had a heck of a time getting the carbs cleaned, not leaking, and then setup right. I'd suggest 3 things. The emulsion tubes that are pressed in are definitely a problem. Pull those. And clean them really good. I had fuel leaking from the overflow until I set theft oat levels with the clear tube method. And finally, any vacuum, leak will throw it all out of whack. The T tubes, or gaskets, or the insulators could all be problems.

On the wiring part, here is a diagram I found that might be able to help!




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Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 10:59:45 AM »
Finally some good progress to report on!

So I found a crack in the overflow tube on carb 1.  I sealed that.  A stripped out screw on the #1 float bowl was fixed.  PO had a passion for stripping out any possible screw apparently...it's killing me.

Slow idle jets pulled on carbs 1 and 4.  They were mangled, clogged, and so they were replaced with shiny new ones.  Cylinders 1 and 4 popped back into play without hesitation.  I'm pretty stoked to finally have four cylinders firing ALONG with no leaky carb #1!!  Now if only my broken wrist could grab the clutch so I could ride... just a few more weeks.

Thank you everyone for the help!

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 11:52:29 AM »
FLoat bowl screws are notorious for stripping out. You might want to invest in JIS screwdrivers. The heads of all the screws on your bike are not actually phillips like they look, they are actually JIS. The difference is subtle, a phillips will work but it doesn't seat as firmly leading to the stripped screws. You can pick up a 3 piece set off eBay for around $50 I think and they are a worthwhile addition to your tool collection if you are going to own older Japanese motorcycles.
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Offline 1SpeedD

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 03:54:00 PM »
Thanks for the beta on the JIS screwdrivers.  Makes a lot of sense, given how haggard so many of the stock screws are.  I'll be picking up a set asap

Offline CB650CPastor

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 05:52:05 PM »
Great work, 1SpeedD! Congrats!!
Tim
Current:1980 Honda CB650C Custom, 1969 Toyota Corona Deluxe Sedan
Past: '07 Honda Rebel 250, '80 Yamaha XS1100 Special, '69 Honda CB160, '67 K15 Suzuki Hillbilly, 1971 VW Super Beetle...

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: New 1979 CB650 Owner Needs Help!
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 06:00:37 PM »
You're welcome. That's why you belong to a forum like this.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200