Author Topic: Why single-shield axle bearings??  (Read 1918 times)

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Offline puppytrax

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Why single-shield axle bearings??
« on: November 15, 2006, 01:44:27 PM »
Is there any reason *not* to use double-shielded 6300 series axle bearings both front and rear on my Honda?? Or even double-sealed 6300 series ball bearings??

Why use just a single-shielded ball bearing?? The open side only faces the hollow center of the hub. The hub is not packed with grease, so why have an open side??

I can get my new bearings in either configuration, but I really can't think of any reason *not* to go with the double-shielded (or double-sealed)...
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 01:47:45 PM »
i agree with the double shielded bearing
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline kghost

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 04:20:02 PM »
COST.

Even a 15 cent difference is a significant amount over 1,000,000 units..............

Try $150,000

Since as you say...the bearing is open to the hub..where nothing is...and its sealed by the opposite side bearing....it fdoesn't really need a second seal on the inside now does it?
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Offline puppytrax

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 05:09:59 PM »
Since as you say...the bearing is open to the hub..where nothing is...and its sealed by the opposite side bearing....it fdoesn't really need a second seal on the inside now does it?

So you're saying that all that yellow-ish/orange-ish grease really is Honda factory grease and not watered down detergented grease???  Because the ends are sealed and nothing can get in, right??   ;D
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline kghost

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 07:35:21 PM »
Since as you say...the bearing is open to the hub..where nothing is...and its sealed by the opposite side bearing....it fdoesn't really need a second seal on the inside now does it?

So you're saying that all that yellow-ish/orange-ish grease really is Honda factory grease and not watered down detergented grease???  Because the ends are sealed and nothing can get in, right??   ;D

Kinda. If it were a perfect world and the seals were impervious to air....that would be the case.

Unfortunately even NASA has issues with seals.

Air contains all sorts of bad stuff. Moisture for instance. Obviously more in seattle then say Tuscon.

The grease also breaks down with use. Also breaks down with age.

If the grease looks like something used to preserve a WWII rifle.....its probably Factory grease  ;D

Pretty forgotten neglected piece of a Motorcycle....but ya do have to clean and grease them every 20 years or so  :D

As far as two seals go per bearing.... even if you had both seals per bearing...the grease will probably look the same in 20-30 years. :D

Stranger in a strange land

Offline puppytrax

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 08:11:22 PM »
If the grease looks like something used to preserve a WWII rifle.....its probably Factory grease  ;D

I think so, too...   ;D  Water-contaminated grease/oil has a milky or gray color; not yellow/orange...

Quote
As far as two seals go per bearing.... even if you had both seals per bearing...the grease will probably look the same in 20-30 years. :D

I think you are right...   ;)

I had been toying with the idea of popping off the seal to clean and re-grease the OEM bearings...Unfortunately it's not possible to properly inspect them...so I will probably go with new bearings...

But I still like the idea of double-shielded bearings...the difference in price is negligible...
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline kghost

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 08:18:57 PM »
 ;D  Water-contaminated grease/oil has a milky or gray color; not yellow/orange...

Quote
As far as two seals go per bearing.... even if you had both seals per bearing...the grease will probably look the same in 20-30 years. :D

I think you are right...   ;)

I had been toying with the idea of popping off the seal to clean and re-grease the OEM bearings...Unfortunately it's not possible to properly inspect them...so I will probably go with new bearings...

But I still like the idea of double-shielded bearings...the difference in price is negligible...

You are correct severe water will make it look grey...as it relates to the original grease. Different brands....depends on the brand.

The only way to properly inspect the bearings is to take them out...at which point you might as well put new ones in anyways.

The last time I ordered timkin bearings for a honda hub they came with two seals anyways. Seal with just one wasn't available as you can pop one seal out if you really have to.... ;)

Single sided were no doubt used at the factory due to a slight price difference
Stranger in a strange land

Offline puppytrax

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 08:23:27 PM »
The last time I ordered timkin bearings for a honda hub they came with two seals anyways.

I was looking at National Precision bearings...Where did you get your Timkens??  :o
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline kghost

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 08:32:22 PM »
Purvis Bearings...dunno if they are a local or national chain.....they ordered them.

Walked in and had them measure the factory ones ...then they ordered timkens in the appropriate size.

Worked like a top  ;D

(Yeah kinda cheating I know...but hey they know bearings)
Stranger in a strange land

Offline mcpuffett

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 02:11:12 AM »
i have just replaced my front wheel bearings on my F1 , got the bearings from david silvers here in the uk they were sealed both sides ;),    mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Why single-shield axle bearings??
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 07:48:29 AM »
It's just cheaper to use a single shield bearing, as already noted. You can't easily buy a single shield bearing, the shop will tell you to just pry one off it you need to; you can order one but the special order price will kill you on buying one or two. Honda, buying thousands at a time, can get whatever they want and the single shield will cost less than double.
Honda also uses lip seals on the wheels - one in the retainer cap and another on the sprocket side or speedo drive - so they don't use sealed bearings - again, the cost saving is worthwhile and the extra friction drag is undesirable.
I always use top brand double sealed bearings on wheels. The cost increase is negiligible and the bearing will retain its grease basically forever. The extra friction is hardly noticeable, and you can lose the spacer lip seals if you like (keep the seal on the speedo drive though).
I've found the most important thing with these wheel bearings is the fit. Honda was pretty sloppy with the hub boring - some wheels, probably done with new cutting tools, are a perfect fit on the bearings. Most are very tight, I think because the cutting tools wore down a bit and left a smaller hole.
The hubs all have one retained bearing and one floating bearing (the extra bearing on the bigger bike's sprocket carrier not included as it doesn't carry the bike, just the chain force). The floating bearing MUST be a sliding fit - pretty snug but if you need to press it in it is TOO TIGHT. At least half the wheels I've done need some work on the floating side's hub bore with sandpaper to get a proper fit, I have never found one too loose. If it is too tight you will have premature bearing wear because there will be a high axial load on both bearings. The floating bearing has to be able to shift side to side a bit to relieve that residual axial load. the retained bearing can be pressed in if need be, it just has to be fully seated with the retainer cap snug and staked (or loctited).
Until I figured this out I was occasionally replacing bearings a few months after doing them because the wheel got very stiff to turn. The bearings were either cooked dry or even had shattered balls and cages. I knew I hadn't abused them on assembly. I realized the failing ones were really tight fits, studying the hub and some bearing manuals led me to the solution. Single row ball bearings do not like much axial load at all, speed and load ratings drop precipitously with any axial load.