Author Topic: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)  (Read 14305 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« on: May 13, 2016, 01:47:51 PM »
I apologize but I'm not the most sophisticated mechanic.

With that said I am working to identify charging issues on my 1971 Honda CB500/Four.

This is what I've done already:

- Cleaned ignition switch contacts.
- Checked grounds.
- Checked and cleaned connections.
- Checked every inch of wiring.
- Rewired the whole bike into a Motogadget M-Unit. Fixed short!
- Replaced the Regulator/Rectifier with combo unit from Ricks.
- Replaced old Battery with Anti-Gravity Battery.
- Tested the stator which tests at .9, .9, .9 between yellow lead wires. While the bike running it puts out less than 1VAC. Obviously that means that it's not charging. Reving the engine doesnt matter. No voltage increase.
- Replaced Stator with another Stator that tested with the same results.
- Sent one of the Stators in for a rewind.

I'm at a loss. I don't know where to go from here. Thinking maybe the rotor/flywheel? I'm really not sure how to test it though. Also the manual says the Stator should test at .35 +/- 10%. The Stator is not grounding out just not producing VAC at all.

The bike runs and looks great but it wont charge. 

Guys seriously help? Every time I look at the bike I want to kick it over. Super frustrating.
 

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 01:07:52 AM »
Any ideas guys?

Offline b52bombardier1

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 06:20:52 AM »
See if the magnets in the rotor / flywheel have lost that lovin' magnetic attractive feeling. If a piece of steel does not stick, you need a replacement flywheel.

This can happen if the magnets got hot at some point in the past or surprisingly,  if the flywheel rotor got dropped.

How does the insulation look at the point where the stator wires pass through the engine case? Could you be shorting your AC to ground at that point? This is obviously a long shot guess.

Rick

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 06:23:25 AM by b52bombardier1 »
1971 School Bus Yellow Aermacchi H-D Sprint 350
1972 Candy Yellow CL100 K2
1972 Candy Jet Green Honda CB500
1973 Mighty Green ST90 K0
1974 Mars Orange CT90 K5
1975 Topaz Orange ST90 K2
1976 Shiny Orange CT90
2006 Honda Foreman 500 (restored)

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,697
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 09:36:30 AM »
"See if the magnets in the rotor / flywheel have lost that lovin' magnetic attractive feeling. If a piece of steel does not stick, you need a replacement flywheel."

Hmmm. Not so fast.

The rotor/flywheel has NO magnets. Steel might stick to it a tiny bit if the iron bits have retained some magnetism but this is not important. Unless you want a lighter flywheel or it's physically damaged from a crash, there is no reason to replace one.

The field coil makes a magnetic field axial to the crankshaft. The rotor is aluminum alloy with iron pole pieces embedded in it. The iron bits direct the magnetic field to alternating N/S/N/S poles on the rotor circumference -  these sweep past the stator coils and generate the alternator power. The regulator controls the field coil current and thus its magnetic field strength - and the alternator stator's power output.

So... if your field coil is OK, and your stator coil is OK... the rotor is just a dumb lump of metal and, barring disintegration, failure proof... most likely you have no field coil current if the stator coil is not making any voltage. Residual magnetism in the rotor can produce a volt or two with no load.

Check the regulator wiring and test voltage across the field coil. With key on and engine stopped, you should see battery voltage (or close) on the field coil's two wires. With a fully charged battery and engine running, the field coil voltage will vary as the regulator controls alternator power output trying to maintain around 14V on the battery.

Offline b52bombardier1

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 09:40:51 AM »
Interesting.  I learn something every time I visit this site and this might be handy soon with my CB500.

Rick

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

1971 School Bus Yellow Aermacchi H-D Sprint 350
1972 Candy Yellow CL100 K2
1972 Candy Jet Green Honda CB500
1973 Mighty Green ST90 K0
1974 Mars Orange CT90 K5
1975 Topaz Orange ST90 K2
1976 Shiny Orange CT90
2006 Honda Foreman 500 (restored)

Offline strynboen

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,883
    • http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=865f44aashj22p34o9h5gl9l44&/topic,60973.0.html
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 09:47:31 AM »
it use a elektro magenet..so need to be powered up to be magenetic..its the green -hvite vires vho pover the magenet

so a test is.
..is there send power to the magenet..is there ohm in the vinding inside? the elektromagenet..normaly it are not defekt..
.its the viring..vho gives problems.

..vhy have you thanget the parts..vas they defekt..or vas it just a bay new stuff for fun,,looks better new....idea..



 thek the old parts.. is a better and more effektive vay to solvent problems..then bay  parts,,and thange them ..untill it vorks..a kosty vay to find the problem
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 09:56:32 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 10:24:08 AM »
How about posting up either a diagram of how you have the bike wired now, or at least some pictures of the connections of the M-Unit, Key and Reg/Rec.

Also, some meter readings off the Reg/Rec with motor running and at the battery directly.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,886
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 10:51:04 AM »
For an all-out test of the field coil and alternator, connect one of the field coil wires to ground and the other to the battery +12 volts. This will draw about 2 amps while you're doing it, so don't leave it forever...then fire up the bike and see if you start getting 12 volts or more coming out of it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 01:10:56 PM »
For an all-out test of the field coil and alternator, connect one of the field coil wires to ground and the other to the battery +12 volts. This will draw about 2 amps while you're doing it, so don't leave it forever...then fire up the bike and see if you start getting 12 volts or more coming out of it.

I did this test and it put out zero volts. Ran green to ground and white to + battery.

I tested the field coil per the manual and it tests in spec and is not grounding.

Thoughts?

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 01:13:30 PM »
How about posting up either a diagram of how you have the bike wired now, or at least some pictures of the connections of the M-Unit, Key and Reg/Rec.

Also, some meter readings off the Reg/Rec with motor running and at the battery directly.

Both the regulator/rectifier and battery are new and test in good.

I would post a wiring diagram but someone else did it and he has checked the wiring like four different times and swears it's right.

He went off of the clymber manual wiring diagram.

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 01:16:02 PM »
Update: I sent my stator to ricks to get a rewind. The tech called me back to tell me that the stator is testing within spec. I had him proceed with the rewind anyways just to eliminate the possibility of it being a bad stator. As of right now the bike is not producing any voltage from the stator or field coil even though both parts are testing good and not grounding.

 >:(

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 01:55:06 PM »
How about posting up either a diagram of how you have the bike wired now, or at least some pictures of the connections of the M-Unit, Key and Reg/Rec.

Also, some meter readings off the Reg/Rec with motor running and at the battery directly.

Both the regulator/rectifier and battery are new and test in good.

I would post a wiring diagram but someone else did it and he has checked the wiring like four different times and swears it's right.

He went off of the clymber manual wiring diagram.
I don't mean to sound "prickish" but your first post indicated a full re-wire, Motogadget M-Unit, Ricks combo Reg/Rec, etc... There is absolutely nothing in the Clymer manual that will be meaningful.

If you would like a very quick/simple resolution, please post a picture (photo) of the wiring at the M-unit, the wiring at the Reg/Rec, and post the results of meter readings at the battery at idle, 3,000 RPMS and 5,000 RPMS. Otherwise, you are asking all of us to play Karnac on a bike you didn't wire. Help us, help you.

For the record, the M-unit has basically nothing to do with your charging system, with a small exception possibly and that would depend entirely upon how you wired the Ricks Reg/Rec.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 02:10:22 PM »
How about posting up either a diagram of how you have the bike wired now, or at least some pictures of the connections of the M-Unit, Key and Reg/Rec.

Also, some meter readings off the Reg/Rec with motor running and at the battery directly.

Both the regulator/rectifier and battery are new and test in good.

I would post a wiring diagram but someone else did it and he has checked the wiring like four different times and swears it's right.

He went off of the clymber manual wiring diagram.
I don't mean to sound "prickish" but your first post indicated a full re-wire, Motogadget M-Unit, Ricks combo Reg/Rec, etc... There is absolutely nothing in the Clymer manual that will be meaningful.

If you would like a very quick/simple resolution, please post a picture (photo) of the wiring at the M-unit, the wiring at the Reg/Rec, and post the results of meter readings at the battery at idle, 3,000 RPMS and 5,000 RPMS. Otherwise, you are asking all of us to play Karnac on a bike you didn't wire. Help us, help you.

For the record, the M-unit has basically nothing to do with your charging system, with a small exception possibly and that would depend entirely upon how you wired the Ricks Reg/Rec.

I don't think you sound prickish. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I will try to get those things posted for you.

My friend wired the bike (way beyond my skill) And we have been doing everything else together. I'll ask him for the diagram.

And I apologize again. I'm not a sophisticated mechanic. The clymber manual has been very useful because it had described how to test different parts in the charging system as well as provided a wiring diagram (which I've heard is #$%*).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 02:13:24 PM by zerodaydave »

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 03:07:42 PM »
You can skip the diagram at the moment, a picture (or 3) is worth a thousand words...
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 05:50:42 PM »
You can skip the diagram at the moment, a picture (or 3) is worth a thousand words...

Pictures attached.

At idle: 12.5V
At 3k: 12.5V
At 5k: 12.5V

Looks like no voltage is passing to the regulator/rectifier from the stator but the stator tests good.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 06:07:47 PM by zerodaydave »

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,620
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2016, 06:22:43 PM »
I'd be careful of those wires rubbing on those metal edges. That'll cut through wire in no time. And if it's not fused...

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2016, 07:07:07 PM »
Can you tell where the BLACK wire from the Rick's REG/REC is connected? I can't see it from the pictures.

Also, there's a change that should be made in the Ricks unit as it comes from them. The unit shipped to you with 5 wires in a plastic plug. Those you connected to the Stator output. But, the unit also has 3 loose wires, a GREEN, a WHITE, and a BLACK. The GREEN goes to chassis ground. The WHITE needs to trade places with the RED in the plug. The RED then goes to the battery POS terminal. The BLACK needs to go to LOCK on your M-Unit.

I'd bet you a dollar to a donut making these changes will solve your problem. You're welcome to have your buddy reach out for assistance if needed.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 04:45:31 PM »
Can you tell where the BLACK wire from the Rick's REG/REC is connected? I can't see it from the pictures.

Also, there's a change that should be made in the Ricks unit as it comes from them. The unit shipped to you with 5 wires in a plastic plug. Those you connected to the Stator output. But, the unit also has 3 loose wires, a GREEN, a WHITE, and a BLACK. The GREEN goes to chassis ground. The WHITE needs to trade places with the RED in the plug. The RED then goes to the battery POS terminal. The BLACK needs to go to LOCK on your M-Unit.

I'd bet you a dollar to a donut making these changes will solve your problem. You're welcome to have your buddy reach out for assistance if needed.

I'm going to try this out tomorrow. I'll check on the black wire as well. If that's it I will personally buy you a dozen donuts and a case of beer.

Offline goldarrow

  • one day, i'll be an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,361
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 06:13:58 PM »
Bad grounding can do funny things to bike electrical.  Check negative battery cable to make sure good ground to frame
Life Is Full Of Challenges - And My Backyard Is Full Of SOHC4's

CB550 K0
CB750 K0, K2, K23 JDM, K45, K5
And the little ones z50r, xr50r, st90


750k5 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=114817.0

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2016, 11:58:57 AM »
Can you tell where the BLACK wire from the Rick's REG/REC is connected? I can't see it from the pictures.

Also, there's a change that should be made in the Ricks unit as it comes from them. The unit shipped to you with 5 wires in a plastic plug. Those you connected to the Stator output. But, the unit also has 3 loose wires, a GREEN, a WHITE, and a BLACK. The GREEN goes to chassis ground. The WHITE needs to trade places with the RED in the plug. The RED then goes to the battery POS terminal. The BLACK needs to go to LOCK on your M-Unit.

I'd bet you a dollar to a donut making these changes will solve your problem. You're welcome to have your buddy reach out for assistance if needed.

I'm going to try this out tomorrow. I'll check on the black wire as well. If that's it I will personally buy you a dozen donuts and a case of beer.

CALJ737 if I could crawl through my computer and hug you I would.

The problem was the black wire. It was being run to ground and we needed to run it to 12V.

Now it's working! We have been working on this for about two months now lol.

Thank you!

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2016, 12:17:30 PM »
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2016, 12:20:05 PM »
I'd bet you a dollar to a donut making these changes will solve your problem. You're welcome to have your buddy reach out for assistance if needed.
By the way, where's my donut? Today is National Donut Day actually!
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2016, 01:56:06 PM »
PM me your address! I owe you at least a few dozen!!

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,056
  • I refuse...
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2016, 02:08:31 PM »
10100 Krispy Kreme Circle
Bavarian Cream, Delicioustown, USA

Postman knows me  ;D
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline zerodaydave

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 1971 Honda CB500 - Charging Issue (At wits' end)
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2016, 11:58:02 AM »
Haha. Me again!

So yesterday was awesome cruised around the city all day and everything was good. Got home and tested the battery and it was at 14V not running.

Today I wake up start the bike everything is good. Start driving down the road and all of a sudden the bike starts backfiring and losing power, the signal lights begin to flicker (and continue flickering even at idle), and the horn starts chirping. It does this between 2.5krpm and 3krpm

I got it home and tested the battery and the battery is at 14.25v with the bike not running.

Is it now overcharging lol? I have an 8cell 13V antigravity battery.

Thoughts?

edit: Just tested it again. It's 14.5v running and at 3k its 14.5 and 5k its the same. Yesterday it would test at what the manual says it should be. I have no idea whats changed.

The manual says at 2000 it should run at 13.2 which yesterday it was running around.

There are two red wires going to positive one from the munit and the other from the starter so if you remove that wire the bike wont start.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 12:36:50 PM by zerodaydave »