Author Topic: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild  (Read 61673 times)

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Offline AlekStooge

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78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« on: May 27, 2016, 10:28:21 PM »
Alright I'm starting this thread mid-stride. I didn't plan on rebuilding the engine (nor have I ever) this year but an unexpected stripped spark plug thread let me to taking off my head. I figured if I am going to do that I might as well make performance improvements and once you got one thing apart.... well you know how that goes.

In addition to hunting other threads, I would also like to call on the senior members ;) ;) ;D of the forum to assist in reassembly when the time comes.

Here is what has been done and where I'm at the moment.

-Thread was fixed with an insert by a machine shop
-Block+head were decked flat for an MLS gasket.
-Cylinders were bored to 553cc for 59mm Wisecos
-Jugs were treated with thermal dissipative coating
-Wisecos were shot with thermal reflective coating on the domes and treated with dry film lubricant on the skirts. (Thanks to calj737)
-Head was ported by Mike Reick
-Kibblewhite valve train: exhaust guides, valve springs,+1mm intake valves and exhaust valves.
-Serdi valve job
-Bored intake seats
-Megacycle 126-00 cam
-Hardweld rockers
-slotted cam sprocket
-Heavy duty cylinder studs (not yet installed)

The entire engine is being blasted and painted except for the block and bottom end covers. During this time I would like help in ordering any parts which sit in the cases that would need replacement such as primary chain, gears, oil seals etc...

Here are some photos of the current state of some of the parts sitting in the cases. I know you can't see everything from every angle but all the gears, sprockets anything with teeth on it looks good.






Yes that is the rear lower engine mount I didn't want to put it in vise and my cases are gone.



Can I use metal rescue on this rotor to remove rust?


I'm a little lost with some of these parts and looking at CMSNL isn't always clear.

Offline Camrector

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 11:19:08 PM »
I'll be following along, as I am doing a full rebuild myself. It's under "cb550 motor build" here on the forum.

Offline Bootsey

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2016, 02:50:33 AM »
Should be quite the motor once you finish. Might be an idea to get some plastigauge so you can check the crank & rod bearing clearances.
Are you planning on replacing the primary chain & cam chain whilst you're at it?

Offline DaveBarbier

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78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2016, 05:11:00 AM »
Nice! I didn't know you were doing all that work to the motor. That'll be really nice when you get it back together.

Also, this keeps crashing my Tapatalk! Probably don't need to upload pictures with military grade pixel density. Somewhere between potato and lab grade works.

Get OEM seals. The seal plug by the front sprocket is almost impossible to find, I'll see if I can locate one for you. I think it's #39 in the CMSNL parts fiche.

Edit: CMSNL says they have it. All other places I've looked the part says obsolete or unavailable. I had such a hard time finding mine I'll urge you to get this sooner rather than later. http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/oil-seal-34x9_91207374000/#.V0mLfPT3bCQ

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 05:52:33 AM »
Camrector: Welcome! I'll probably learn something from your thread.

Should be quite the motor once you finish. Might be an idea to get some plastigauge so you can check the crank & rod bearing clearances.
Are you planning on replacing the primary chain & cam chain whilst you're at it?

Plastigauge, I've been seeing that a lot lately. I already have feeler gauges but I'll get those too.

I did plan on replacing the primary chain but seeing how much it costs I am kinda on the fence. I turned 10K on the bike shortly after I got it, not sure if it is necessary but then again since the cases are apart... Cam chain I'll replace.

Are you planning on replacing the primary chain & cam chain whilst you're at it?
Alek - Do this ^^^. In addition, contact member Elan and order an Oil Pump rebuild kit, get a new Oil Pressure switch, and replace all the oil seals on the cases. It's a small amount of money but worlds of value.

You can dip that rotor in Metal Rescue safely.

I imagine you will have lots of folks following along on this one  :D

Yeah I am pretty sure that oil pump will need rebuilt after I most likely got water in to it trying wash the cases of oil before shipping. :-[ Mike Reick already reamed me for this.

Nice! I didn't know you were doing all that work to the motor. That'll be really nice when you get it back together.

Also, this keeps crashing my Tapatalk! Probably don't need to upload pictures with military grade pixel density. Somewhere between potato and lab grade works.

Get OEM seals. The seal plug by the front sprocket is almost impossible to find, I'll see if I can locate one for you. I think it's #39 in the CMSNL parts fiche.

Edit: CMSNL says they have it. All other places I've looked the part says obsolete or unavailable. I had such a hard time finding mine I'll urge you to get this sooner rather than later. http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/oil-seal-34x9_91207374000/#.V0mLfPT3bCQ

Yeah and that work is a done now painting and reassembly. We have to make sure it is carefully put back together. Don't want any valves breaking!

You showed me how to post pics using Imgur I wouldn't know why they look screwed up.

That seal looked to be in good condition an seems to be just pressed in...would I be able to reuse it? Where did you order your oil seals from again? Wasn't it a little here and there?
 

Offline DaveBarbier

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78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 06:20:36 AM »
Plastigauge, I've been seeing that a lot lately. I already have feeler gauges but I'll get those too.

Plastigage is a wax filament to check tight tolerances like crank bearings by how much is squishes. Something that needs to be done to see if you need new bearings.

That seal looked to be in good condition an seems to be just pressed in...would I be able to reuse it? Where did you order your oil seals from again? Wasn't it a little here and there?

I'm against using old seals because they don't have the squish anymore. I don't think these were pressed in at factory. I haven't heard of anyone successfully replacing that seal while the cases are together. Could be wrong though.

Yeah, it was here and there to get all OEM stuff. Took a bit of searching but it was worth it.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 06:54:21 AM »
Alek,

With all that you have invested into the engine, do not cheap out on replacing the seals and the primary and cam chains.  They are not that expensive in comparison to what you have paid for other upgraded parts.  Remember, you are upping the performance/stress on the motor.  Do not create a "weak" link.

Love what I see so far.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 07:14:26 AM »
Nice! I didn't know you were doing all that work to the motor. That'll be really nice when you get it back together.

Also, this keeps crashing my Tapatalk! Probably don't need to upload pictures with military grade pixel density. Somewhere between potato and lab grade works.

Get OEM seals. The seal plug by the front sprocket is almost impossible to find, I'll see if I can locate one for you. I think it's #39 in the CMSNL parts fiche.

Edit: CMSNL says they have it. All other places I've looked the part says obsolete or unavailable. I had such a hard time finding mine I'll urge you to get this sooner rather than later. http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/oil-seal-34x9_91207374000/#.V0mLfPT3bCQ

The same is true for the 750 too, right? I want to grab the 750 version if it's available.
It you have to order from CMSNL, you want to make it worth your while (shipping is ultra pricey), so pick up whatever unobtainium items you may need.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2016, 05:45:43 PM »
Dave: Check on the Plastigauge http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-80593-Plastigauge/dp/B007VR8VFQ

I will get my hands on that one oil seal. I don't blame you for not remembering all those sources. I will be looking at David Silver, Cycle X, 4into1 etc... If anyone knows any good sources please share that would be much appreciated.

CB 750 Café Racer Fan: I agree I want to do things right because it would be a damn shame not to and re-disassembling is drag.

Cal: Cam and primary chain check

Doing some research and shopping tonight. 


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2016, 07:01:36 PM »
Dave: Check on the Plastigauge http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-80593-Plastigauge/dp/B007VR8VFQ

I will get my hands on that one oil seal. I don't blame you for not remembering all those sources. I will be looking at David Silver, Cycle X, 4into1 etc... If anyone knows any good sources please share that would be much appreciated.

Too much for the plastigage. The different colors distinguish different tolerances. You only need the green one. Any auto parts place will have it. Should be under $4. One strip will do.

I mainly use Partzilla (love hate relationship with them), David Silver and then typing 'Honda and then the part number' into eBay. Make sure the hyphens are in and in the right place.

CMSNL is great too but as Don said the shipping kills you. I just ordered two pilot jets from them and it's like $30 shipping, but they seem to have the best stock.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2016, 07:43:47 PM »
Dave: Check on the Plastigauge http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-80593-Plastigauge/dp/B007VR8VFQ

I will get my hands on that one oil seal. I don't blame you for not remembering all those sources. I will be looking at David Silver, Cycle X, 4into1 etc... If anyone knows any good sources please share that would be much appreciated.

Too much for the plastigage. The different colors distinguish different tolerances. You only need the green one. Any auto parts place will have it. Should be under $4. One strip will do.

I mainly use Partzilla (love hate relationship with them), David Silver and then typing 'Honda and then the part number' into eBay. Make sure the hyphens are in and in the right place.

CMSNL is great too but as Don said the shipping kills you. I just ordered two pilot jets from them and it's like $30 shipping, but they seem to have the best stock.

Sounds good on the plastigauge! I've never ordered anything from CMSNL I mainly have used it as a schematic and want to keep it that way.

How does the clutch look everybody? Plates appear to have rust on them.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 11:36:05 PM »
Is this the complete oil seal kit?
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/oil-seal-kitcb550k_90000374000/

David Silver has most of these individually. I am cross referencing the manufacture codes to see if they are available and then hopefully save money on shipping.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2016, 05:08:13 AM »
This isn't the complete kit. It doesn't come with one of the crank seals. And I'm not even sure it's actually OEM. It says "manufactured to Japanese quality control standards"

You could email and ask.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 06:14:03 AM »
This isn't the complete kit. It doesn't come with one of the crank seals. And I'm not even sure it's actually OEM. It says "manufactured to Japanese quality control standards"

You could email and ask.

Ok, but at least that is all but one missing right? That way I'll at least know what I'm looking for. As I mentioned I wouldn't be ordering from CMSNL most likely because of their shipping costs.

Any more oil seals at any other part of the engine I'll need? I have a complete gasket set (I forgot what brand) but that might have some in there. I'll check that out when I have some time.

Offline DaveBarbier

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78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 06:48:28 AM »
It says it has 7 seals, but I don't remember if that's it for the bottom end. There might be more. It's honestly just research and cross checking part numbers, not very glamorous :).

Your gasket set probably doesn't have the rubber pucks over the head nuts. I haven't come across a gasket set that does.

Sorry I can't be much help on how many or what seals you need. I didn't save all that info. I do remember that as I was assembling I was ordering more seals that I forgot.

Offline separatist

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2016, 09:05:03 AM »
Nice! I didn't know you were doing all that work to the motor. That'll be really nice when you get it back together.

Also, this keeps crashing my Tapatalk! Probably don't need to upload pictures with military grade pixel density. Somewhere between potato and lab grade works.

Get OEM seals. The seal plug by the front sprocket is almost impossible to find, I'll see if I can locate one for you. I think it's #39 in the CMSNL parts fiche.

Edit: CMSNL says they have it. All other places I've looked the part says obsolete or unavailable. I had such a hard time finding mine I'll urge you to get this sooner rather than later. http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/oil-seal-34x9_91207374000/#.V0mLfPT3bCQ
Holy sh!t, the grail! I thought it lost forever!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2016, 11:07:17 AM »
No worries, thanks.
It says it has 7 seals, but I don't remember if that's it for the bottom end. There might be more. It's honestly just research and cross checking part numbers, not very glamorous :).

Your gasket set probably doesn't have the rubber pucks over the head nuts. I haven't come across a gasket set that does.

Sorry I can't be much help on how many or what seals you need. I didn't save all that info. I do remember that as I was assembling I was ordering more seals that I forgot.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2016, 05:32:40 PM »
Hi y'all

I haven't been working on the motor for a while. I had some family visiting and had to wait for the engine come back from painting.

I am ready to order seals some OEM seals. I got a little bit confused using CMSNL to find the Honda part number.They list the same part in the same schematic several times but they have different part numbers? I know certain parts are used several times in different places of the engine but having what appears to be the same part in the same spot listed several times with different part numbers does not make sense.

For example: Number 21 in the shift schematic. http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550k-1978-usa_model7222/partslist/E++16.html#results

I will look for the OEM part elsewhere just using CMSNL to get part numbers.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2016, 11:18:23 PM »
I figured out how CMSNL works a little bit better and I crossed referenced all gaskets, O-rings, seals and pucks with my cycle X complete gasket set. I found there was a total of 30 pieces missing and I made a list of those pieces not in the set.

I'm not understanding what a complete gasket set is if there is so much missing? It seems whether it's a Vesrah, Cycle X or NE brand they all have 55 pieces as part of a complete set.

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 12:19:02 PM »
So that's what everyone does order them one by one? I'll look Elan up.

Offline Smudgemo

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2016, 08:15:41 PM »
I'll be doing my '76 550 this winter, so thanks for the thread.  Another few posts and I'll begin my project thread.
-Ryan
-Ryan

Thread - How to fix your starter button (for real): http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163170.0.html

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2016, 11:24:17 PM »
So that's what everyone does order them one by one? I'll look Elan up.

He's on Facebook too.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2016, 11:35:30 PM »
Ordered oil seals, pucks and O-rings after making a list of OEM part numbers. I will post the list once I know 100% it's correct, so others don't have to go through the cross referencing and hunting I had to because a set doesn't exist. I also ordered a primary chain and the cam chain was not available at the moment.

I've been studying DaveBarbier's thread. I'm at the point of plastigaging my crank bearings. I've never used plastigauge before so I watched a couple of videos on it. It seems I don't need to do anything with the connecting rods and I don't want to because of the stretch bolts. Is there any other bearing I should plastigauge while I'm at it?

I didn't order bearings but I should be good since I got the engine with under 10K on it. 

Offline NobleHops

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2016, 03:22:56 AM »
Another thing to inspect at this moment is the engagement dogs on the transmission gears. You'll see them if you take each shaft and separate the pairs of gears that engage with each other along the shaft - one will have male "dogs" and the other will have slots that the dogs engage with. A little wear and rounding is to be expected, but if you see gouges or really rounded over shoulders then it may be wise to seek a replacement. 

The other item to inspect closely is the shift forks - I think there is a spec for width at the tip, but if there is big wear or they are bent it will be obvious. Also look for scorching or unusual wear. At 10K miles I would not expect to find trouble with either of these unless the engine had a low oil episode or was abused, but as with everything else you are lovingly fixing in this engine, this should be looked at now, you know, WHILE YOU'RE THERE. :-)

N.
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline AlekStooge

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Re: 78 CB 550K motor rebuild
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2016, 05:50:09 AM »
Another thing to inspect at this moment is the engagement dogs on the transmission gears. You'll see them if you take each shaft and separate the pairs of gears that engage with each other along the shaft - one will have male "dogs" and the other will have slots that the dogs engage with. A little wear and rounding is to be expected, but if you see gouges or really rounded over shoulders then it may be wise to seek a replacement. 

The other item to inspect closely is the shift forks - I think there is a spec for width at the tip, but if there is big wear or they are bent it will be obvious. Also look for scorching or unusual wear. At 10K miles I would not expect to find trouble with either of these unless the engine had a low oil episode or was abused, but as with everything else you are lovingly fixing in this engine, this should be looked at now, you know, WHILE YOU'RE THERE. :-)

N.

That brings me to my next question. What are false neutrals? The reason I ask is because when I rode the bike I remember shifting down into neutral one time and I got a grinding noise and obviously not neutral. I guess it could have been operator error as well but it sounds like false neutral would be an accurate way to describe this. How do I check this?