Topic: CB550 All is wrong. Running rough. Wont Idle etc...

[NoLuck]

Hello Everyone,
New member as of 5/29/16. Love this community. LONG post incoming. I own a 1975 Honda CB550k 18K miles (or so the PO said as it had a newish speedo). Its pretty but its a pain in the butt. Upgrades: Dyna s ignition (which replaces points?) and a mac 4-1 exhaust and thats it. Test drove it and it ran OK not great tho. Towed it home as i did not have my license yet ( i do now )  and once it was home it would hardly start. Got it to start after replacing battery with a new one.  Then it would only run on the #2 cylinder. Got frustrated took it to a mechanic. Mechanic replaced all spark plugs put new throttle cable in (which it really needed) and said he synched the carbs. Said that when he synched the carbs they were totally out of whack before he started. Got the bike back and it ran good and on all 4 cylinders. It would idle around 1400 RPM. Drove it around and it would die at stop lights after the engine was warmed up. Battery was charging properly so i thought it could be old oil. Oil smelled like gas. I then replaced oil filter and oil with 20w50 and pulled the oil pan off as it was leaking terribly. Replaced O ring for oil pan (crankcase?) to seal the leak up. Still leaks just not as bad. Seemed to improve in performance and no longer dies at lights. Left side head gasket is leaking only a few drops in a 30-45 minute ride. Did a COLD compression test and got the following Number #1 140Dry 142Wet, #2 120Dry 145Wet, #3 120Dry 122Wet #4 125Dry 130Wet. Thoughts on these numbers? Now I pulled the plugs after putting about 50 miles on new ones. All plugs looked black and sooty. Tried removing air filter and it ran better so i decided i would adjust pilot screw to lean out the mix. Turned them all to 2-2.5 turns out and it ran great. However when doing this it would idle high when warmed up around 2000Rpm and not start first kick. So i ran it like that way a while because it ran much more responsive to the throttle and just felt smoother in every gear and rpm however when i pulled the plugs again they were still black and sooty. Now the bike all of a sudden is only running on #1 and #4 cylinders. Pulled the plugs and cleaned them up. Started up and worked on all cylinders for about 5 miles then it only ran on 1 and 4 again. Thought it could be the coils, spark plug cords or the boots? This is where i stand right now. Really appreciate this community and would love some help with this terrible beast. Will post pictures in a few minutes.

[NoLuck]

Heres some pics. Bike, Engine head gasket leak and sooty spark plug

[DaveBarbier]

First, download the factory service manual in the downloads section. Then do the FULL 3k mile tune up. Remove and clean the carbs thoroughly. Remove all jets and clean with a thin wire and carb cleaner. Spray carb cleaner through all holes.

Replace spark plug caps (couple $ each) and trim off about 1/4" of the end of the plug wire where the cap screws into to get to clean copper.

How clean is the tank? Do you find debris in the bottom of the float bowls? If so, clean out the tank and de-rust if needed. Fuel delivery system must be clean.

Regarding the compression, this might or might not be an issue yet. If this was a currently used bike then it's an issue, but if this bike sat for a period of time then the compression should increase after you put miles on it.

Doing this might eliminate some issues and at least give you piece of mind and help you trouble shoot more efficiently.

Oh, and WELCOME, nice bike!

[NoLuck]

Hi Dave and thanks for the input. I have the clymer manual. I should finish the steps in the 3k tune up. Tank is clean. No rust. Don't think it's fuel since the fuel lines run to 1 and 2 then the other fuel line runs to 3 and 4. Something I noticed when checking spark on all spark plug wires was that I couldn't see  a spark when I put the spark plugs against the engine head. Key was in and on and the kill switch was on so the bike wouldn't turn on but would still crank with electric start. Then I tried with the kill switch disengaged as if I was going to stark the bike to ride. 

[DaveBarbier]

I have the clymer manual. I should finish the steps in the 3k tune up.

You're welcome, glad to help! Clymer is pretty terrible in many instances. Sometimes leaving out important info. You could download the FSM just to double check things.

And yes, without doing the full 3k mile tune up and other things I mentioned, you likely will still be having issues. I'm really just regurgitating what I've learned from other, much smarter people on the forum, and what they told me to do

Something I noticed when checking spark on all spark plug wires was that I couldn't see  a spark when I put the spark plugs against the engine head. Key was in and on and the kill switch was on so the bike wouldn't turn on but would still crank with electric start. Then I tried with the kill switch disengaged as if I was going to stark the bike to ride. Then I could see spark when I checked all plugs. So 1-4 sparked when engine was running  but would not spark just turning the engine over with electric start. Really puzzled by this.

So killswitch in the on position (to start bike) gives spark and in the off position (to shut off bike) doesn't give spark, right? This is normal. The killswitch determines whether the bike will fire by allowing spark or not. The starter will always be able to turn of the key is in and in the on position.

[Scott S]

 That's what it's supposed to do. The kill switch kills the spark.

 I've heard too many stories of failing Dynas. Sounds like that might be what's happening here.

[NoLuck]

Ok so I could probably rule out that the plug boots, wires and coils are bad. Next I would assume carbs? I checked and they all are getting fuel since I opened the drain plug screws  on all 4 and fuel came out of everyone of them. I tried to start it again just now and it started on all 4 cylinders but soon as I gave it gas to keep it from dying 2 and 3 cylinders died. Should I just do a complete carb rebuild with a kit or should I just try and clean them? Thanks again guys. Also would the dyna be bad even tho I get spark on all plugs? Is there a method to check for a bad dyna? Do I have to set timing even tho it has a dyna s installed? I'll try and post a video too if that would help out. Thank you

[DaveBarbier]

A video is worth a thousand pictures!

I've heard people here say that 90% of all carb problems are electrical. Meaning people jump to blame the carbs when often times it's ignition. Can't rule out spark yet. A visual spark is obviously good, but checking the resistance of the ignition will give us a better idea whether or not the spark is weak.

Have a multimeter? If not, get one. Remove the plug caps from the plugs and unscrew them from the wire. Use a multimeter set to ohms and post the value of all 4. Should be around 5k ohms each.

Then, check the resistance of the coils. Are they stock or do you have Dyna coils? If they're stock, one has a blue wire and the other has a yellow wire and both coils have a black/white stripe wire. Put one multimeter lead on the black/white wire and the other lead on the blue wire from one coil. Tell us the value. Switch the blue wire lead to the yellow and tell us the value. It should be around 5 ohms.

You could also put one lead in the #1 spark plug wire and the other lead in the #4 and post the value, and then same with 2 & 3.

Carbs getting fuel is good, but they should be cleaned as I said earlier. Then use the 'clear tube method' (search the forum for it) to verify the level of fuel is good and the same for all carbs. If not, they'll have to be adjusted.

And obviously finish the 3k mile tune up.

Sounds like a lot of stuff, but take things slowly and one at a time. Ask questions and post a lot of pictures...all the pictures.

Anymore experienced, more attractive members feel free to jump in if I'm giving poor info.

[NoLuck]

I will be starting a new post / topic for this bikes issues as i think the intro was a bit long and scared people off haha.

[DaveBarbier]

Many people don't mind a lengthy read, some do. You're welcome to make as many posts as you feel necessary for your bike's issues. But the fact remains that the best place to start is at the beginning. You must bring your bike up to a baseline to start proper troubleshooting. These simple procedures and tests above are imperative for an old bike that likely has sat for a period of time in it's life with questionable levels of care.

[NoLuck]

new post about this topic Link: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158066.msg1811708.html#msg1811708

[NoLuck]

Hey dave i did the things you asked and here are the results. (I will attach photos and a Video as wel)

Tested Spark plug boots with a multimeter. 
Boot 1= 11.9
Boot 2= 10
Boot 3= 10.7
Boot 4= 10

Next i tested the spark plug wires.
Wire 1 and 4= 15.7
Wire 2 and 3= 12.9

Next i try and tested the actual Coils but it got a little weird.
Coil for yellow and black/white wire= 10.7
Coil for blue and black/white wire= 0.00

I should mention when i tested the coils that the kill switch was in the run position with the key out of the bike.
When i tried the test again with the kill switch in the off position i got no numbers everything was a 0.00

[DaveBarbier]

What exact spark plugs do you have?

Tested Spark plug boots with a multimeter. 
Boot 1= 11.9
Boot 2= 10
Boot 3= 10.7
Boot 4= 10

Get new plug caps. NGK 5k ohm. They're a couple bucks each from any automotive store or online. Your numbers are double what they should be, but weirdly all fairly uniform. I wonder if you have 10k ohm plug caps.

Next i tested the spark plug wires.
Wire 1 and 4= 15.7
Wire 2 and 3= 12.9

These might be fine, a normal value would be something like 14.5 or so.

Next i try and tested the actual Coils but it got a little weird.
Coil for yellow and black/white wire= 10.7
Coil for blue and black/white wire= 0.00

I should mention when i tested the coils that the kill switch was in the run position with the key out of the bike.
When i tried the test again with the kill switch in the off position i got no numbers everything was a 0.00

Do you have Dyna coils? If so, it might say the ohm rating on it. I didn't think the killswitch would affect the test, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, it looks like your 1-4 coil is bad. The blue wire connects to the 1-4 coil.

Saw your other post and do the test that the other member said. You could instead swap the blue and yellow wires from the coils. So the 2-3 coil now fires the 1-4 plugs and vice versa. If the problem is now with the 2-3 then the coil is bad. If the problem stays with 1-4, then the problem is before the coils and likely it's the Dyna ignition. Make sense?

Please also finish the 3k tune up. Cam chain, tappet clearance, (doesn't seem like you can do timing yet) but all these in the 3k tune up could magnify your symptoms.

Looks like we're getting somewhere

[Bankerdanny]

Lots of good advice. My only add will be to tell you to be systematic in your approach. You will figure it out.

[NoLuck]

I Have NGk D7ea Spark plugs.

i DONT think i have Dyna coils.

So what is weird here is that when doing a spark test with the plug touching the engine head i get spark to 1 and 4 but not to 2 and 3 (hence why its only running on 1 and 4), But then doing this test it would seem that 1 and 4 coil is bad???

Also when doing this test do i use the same exact black and white wire to test with the blue and yellow wires or is there a separate black and white wire i should use?

[NoLuck]

I will post a video if I can of me doing the test or at least showing you where I'm testing exactly. But I will do a re test. Also if sitting on the bike is coil pack 1 on the left hand side or the right?

[NoLuck]

Also this is the multi meter I'm using. Is it in he correct position to measure for this test?
Coil  pack 1 on the left side of my bike has plugs going to 2 and 3 spark plug wires? Is this normal? Does it matter which coil is on which side?

[NoLuck]

Ok. Thank you. I'm so confused on this wiring because the yellow to black/white gives me a number of around 10.7-11 then testing blue to black/white give me 0.00? I'm trying to upload a YouTube video to show you guys my process of testing the coils which I'm probably doing wrong. Does the kill switch have to be in the run position to do the test as well as the key in the bike?

[NoLuck]

Thanks calj. Just so we are clear is the chassis the frame of the bike? Thanks for the info as well I will do the test in about an hour when I'm home.

[b1jackson]

I started a thread as well with some rough running no cylinder fire issues and will follow up with some of the items in this thread.  I too am learning as I go and trying to avoid jumping right into a carb overhaul when I don't think it's the issue.

[NoLuck]

 Did the test like you described above and got NOTHING. 0.00
Ive attached pictures where i tested and which cables i tested.

I connected red multimeter wire to black white wire and black multimeter to frame and got 0.00

Did the same with the other black and white wire for the other coil and got 0.00

Now the two black and white wires from each coil do connect into one terminal that then turns into one black and white wire and when i tested this i got 11 to 12 With multi meter set to 20DCV . I have attached a picture of where the two black wires connect into one wire.

Further down the rabbit hole i go.

Any ideas at all?

[Deltarider]

It does indicate that you have power, but also a fair bit of resistance in the circuit (getting only 11-12v).

11-12V at the coils with the engine not running is not abnormal.

[NoLuck]

I tested again this morning after reading that I may have done it wrong.
Attached are photos of what I was doing
Also I attached a photo of the coil for my 1 and 4 plugs that looks like it has some rust build up.
I also checked OHM resistance on both coils again.
Any advice is sincerely appreciated. Thank you

[NoLuck]

Testing in the first photo with the two black wires I got 10.7dcv probably cause the battery isn't fully charged
This was done with run switch to on and key in and turned on

[NoLuck]

Corrosion/rust