Topic: can't set static timing to F mark

[76400F]

That, and the fact that if you stick a bike in a field for 30 years, it can teach you a lot of lessons when you try to revive it.

[flybox1]

and a few new swear words 

[madmtnmotors]

The bike ran when it was parked (30 yrs ago) and the advancer has not been apart, so there's no way this is the issue.

Well, I can't diagnose problems from here if you are going to proceed with components that are known to be not working as they should. If the advancer is not the issue, then either your point gap is too wide or your points are too worn, or you got some really bad Diachi points (are there actually good ones?), or your methodology is at fault.

Are you using the main points plate for 1-4 and the secondary sub points plate for 2-3?

[Joust]

Are you sure you've set the 0,014 breakerpointsgap when the cam was at it highest? Reason I ask is that I remember someone who had set the gap without having the cam at its highest and as a consequence never could get it right. Below the advancer assy of a CB500/550 but I'm sure yours is almost identical. You could check the little carve in the rim faces the hole (shown in white cirkels in the pic at 5 o'clock). If yours hasn't been apart and bike ran OK before, don't bother.
 
About Daiichi the reports are mixed. Some have no problems with them.

thats great info. thanks guys. we certainly didn't know the cam had timing marks. will check that. and pull it off to clean it up.
we will also dial indicator the shaft for true.
We will put the original Honda Points on 2-3
we will ensure they are gaped at highest point.

stay tuned.
i learned stuff. gotta Love forums for sharing.

[76400F]

The build has been an absolute blast up to, and including this, actually, so there's no down side. Like everything, it'll get figured out. Thanks so much for your help. This site has been a wealth of knowledge thus far. Like Joust said...we have a plan now. Will update tomorrow.

[Deltarider]

Don't worry too much, you will love the bike. The 400 was the smartest of them all. Again, if the bike ran OK with the advancer as it is, don't bother. If it was taken apart, then I'd examine it again for proper assembly.

[76400F]

The history on the old girl, and what Joust left out, was that I owned the bike first. It was my first (legal) road bike when I was 16 years old (1984). I fell in love with her at first ride. Rode it for 2 years then the RZ350 came out and I had to have one. Sold the 400F to Joust and he rode it for a few years then parked it and bought a Katana 600. It sat from 1986 to 2016. He was moving and after more than a few beers one night, told me if I wanted it, to come and pick her up. The first thing I thought was "money pit." But then sentimentality took over and I began my quest. Here's what she looked like the day I brought it home. Not pretty...

[DaveBarbier]

Is that paint on the fender or blood from your eyes after you saw it for the first time?

[76400F]

A bit of both I think...

[Joust]

A bit of both I think...

was it you? or I that painted that fender? i believe it was you, but i'm not too sure. You had the tank and sidepanels done for sure. and the seat. and you cut the fender.

I especially like the green patina...(ahem mold) 
so ashamed.

[alacrity]

I'm not certain about anything anymore, except that I'm not as smart as I thought I was.

If you think you have all the answers, then you're asking the wrong questions.  There is no one on this forum that has every answer to every aspect. Many have a great breadth, and some are oceans deep on certain aspects, but nobody is Omniscient on these bikes. So you're in very good company.

Plus 1111111111++++!!

The fastest way to stop solving s problem is to think "we tried everything..."  (Have you seen that posted in here?  I sure have). Just like the best way to ensure you will never find the thing you are searching for is to say, "I looked everywhere."   These are not "simple machines" the way a manual can opener is a "simple machine."  I have been wrenching and riding since 1973 and I learn something new here every day. (This may of course at least partially be due the fact that I am an idiot).

[Joust]

we took apart the advancer, cleaned up the parts, the oil between the cam and the shaft was turned to glue. We put the shaft on alone and used a dial indicator to prove it was true. it was within .001"

we put the plate back on. installed the second OLD points for 2-3 and set the gap for 0.014..... and the timing marks were the same.as previously note......pull some hair out, swear some more. take a picture to show you guys...

stop. calm down. try the suggestion to tighten the points gap. we set it to a tight 0.012.
Low and Behold! the F mark comes within reach. adjust the plate to fit...VOILA! there is that elusive F'kin F mark in our window at the proper point.

Confident now we will have firing in the proper place.
She Started right up!!!

We have the video to prove it.

[madmtnmotors]

we took apart the advancer, cleaned up the parts, the oil between the cam and the shaft was turned to glue. We put the shaft on alone and used a dial indicator to prove it was true. it was within .001"

we put the plate back on. installed the second OLD points for 2-3 and set the gap for 0.014..... and the timing marks were the same.as previously note......pull some hair out, swear some more. take a picture to show you guys...

stop. calm down. try the suggestion to tighten the points gap. we set it to a tight 0.012.
Low and Behold! the F mark comes within reach. adjust the plate to fit...VOILA! there is that elusive F'kin F mark in our window at the proper point.

Confident now we will have firing in the proper place.
She Started right up!!!

We have the video to prove it.

Kudos! Now you won't have to take it back apart to service the advancer mechanism. 

[DaveBarbier]

we took apart the advancer, cleaned up the parts, the oil between the cam and the shaft was turned to glue. We put the shaft on alone and used a dial indicator to prove it was true. it was within .001"

we put the plate back on. installed the second OLD points for 2-3 and set the gap for 0.014..... and the timing marks were the same.as previously note......pull some hair out, swear some more. take a picture to show you guys...

stop. calm down. try the suggestion to tighten the points gap. we set it to a tight 0.012.
Low and Behold! the F mark comes within reach. adjust the plate to fit...VOILA! there is that elusive F'kin F mark in our window at the proper point.

Confident now we will have firing in the proper place.
She Started right up!!!

We have the video to prove it.

Do not rotate the engine with that nut on the points side. It can easily snap off and then you're screwed, I think it's only a 6mm rod you're making the whole motor turn with. Use the rotor bolt on the other side or kickstart.

I think it might be ok to use that nut as long as spark plugs are out.

[DaveBarbier]

But other than that, nice! Strange though that you should be able to set the gap to any size within the tolerance. I bet shimming the plate would help, but you've got it timed so maybe it's not required.

Hopefully advance with a strobe is going to be right on too. If not...try shimming.

[flybox1]

Do not rotate the engine with that nut on the points side. It can easily snap off and then you're screwed, I think it's only a 6mm rod you're making the whole motor turn with. Use the rotor bolt on the other side or kickstart.

I think it might be ok to use that nut as long as spark plugs are out.

There is a locating dowel on the back side of teh advancer mechanism that takes all the pressure when rotating the crank with the big nut.
Its OK.  If you go slow, its OK. 

Nice work Joust.  I cleaned my adv unit last night.  They can be really caked with stuff.  Mine twisted with the sound of a pepper mill.
If you do clean it furhter, be sure to note the two .003" washers on either sides of the weights.
Dont loose them 

[DaveBarbier]

Do not rotate the engine with that nut on the points side. It can easily snap off and then you're screwed, I think it's only a 6mm rod you're making the whole motor turn with. Use the rotor bolt on the other side or kickstart.

I think it might be ok to use that nut as long as spark plugs are out.

There is a locating dowel on the back side of teh advancer mechanism that takes all the pressure when rotating the crank with the big nut.
Its OK.  If you go slow, its OK. 

Haha, ok ok. I'm ok, everything is ok

[Deltarider]

Brilliant! Runs fine too. Inspect all little washers and spring washers are there. Not every manual shows them all. Therefore the pic below. Don't forget to lube the oil felt at five o'clock.

[76400F]

Thanks for all your help yesterday guys. Much appreciated. I feel like a complete moron for not triple checking the gap at the max opening, but it's nice to know there's this forum that shows unbelievable patience and kindness. I know that just because she starts, doesn't necessarily mean she's going to run well, so I'll more than likely be chatting with all of you again.

If you're ever around Ottawa, Ontario, beers are on the house.

Cheers,
Mark

[flybox1]

If you're ever around Ottawa, Ontario, beers are on the house.

What time do you start serving!!!!!? (I'm asking on behalf of Flybox because he's shy and I don't drink).

I dont like heights much, so i'll drink on the patio    Falling off the house hurts.
If you ever see a showroom DeLorean around Ottawa on sunny days, give'em a wave.   Its my buddy, Rob.

[76400F]

Whew, someone else who's had too many beers and fallen off the house...

I'll keep my eye out for the DeLorean.

Cheers

[Joust]

Nice work Joust. 

I can't take much if any of the credit. I'm all to blame really. i stored it poorly. 
I did keep it for the last 30 years thinking one day it would be brought back to life. I could not have done what 76400f did.

[alacrity]

Do not rotate the engine with that nut on the points side. It can easily snap off and then you're screwed, I think it's only a 6mm rod you're making the whole motor turn with. Use the rotor bolt on the other side or kickstart.

I think it might be ok to use that nut as long as spark plugs are out.

Dave:You are almost right --  there is a m6 bolt holding the "special washer" fitting to the top of the advancer that threads into the end of the crank.  I always remove the plugs before using this and ONLY use it on an engine that has run or I know turns over easily (tested with kicker).  I think people get into trouble with it if they try to muscle the engine into rotating using this little 10mm head. Better to use the big head (on shoulders) first. imho

[DaveBarbier]

Do not rotate the engine with that nut on the points side. It can easily snap off and then you're screwed, I think it's only a 6mm rod you're making the whole motor turn with. Use the rotor bolt on the other side or kickstart.

I think it might be ok to use that nut as long as spark plugs are out.

Dave:You are almost right --  there is a m6 bolt holding the "special washer" fitting to the top of the advancer that threads into the end of the crank.  I always remove the plugs before using this and ONLY use it on an engine that has run or I know turns over easily (tested with kicker).  I think people get into trouble with it if they try to muscle the engine into rotating using this little 10mm head. Better to use the big head (on shoulders) first. imho

Cool, thanks for the explanation. I used this nut before and everything was fine, but read a lot of posts of people urging not to use it, especially with plugs in. Since then I use the kickstart with plugs out.

On my kickstart-less 650 engine I'm building...well, we'll see what I choose to use when laziness takes over.

[Joust]

I think people get into trouble with it if they try to muscle the engine into rotating using this little 10mm head. Better to use the big head (on shoulders) first. imho

why would anyone try to turn the engine with that 10mm when there is a 17mm in the exact same spot? Not saying it doesn't happen but that is simply lazy. ALL metric tool kits have a 17mm. They deserve to live with that bolt busted off if they did that IMHO.