Topic: cb500 City Cafe

[Cityscapedview]

   I've been looking for a honda cb for sometime, and with the inflated bay area craigslist market being what it is, it has been a struggle to find anything worthy of investment.   Eventually, however,  I was able to find a 1971 honda cb500 k0 that belonged to a co-worker's father.    The co-worker's father had been using the bike as a parts bike for his honda cb500 cafe project, but was willing to sell it with an extra cb500 engine and lots of other parts for a reasonable price.   

  This last Sunday,  my buddy and I made the journey out to pick up the cb500 and extra parts and meet the co-worker's father, John.   John was a knowledgeable friendly guy and he showed us his project and what he wanted to do with it. 

This is John's project, a cb500 with a cb550 engine.




This is my truck loaded up with the cb500 and tons of extra parts.




My goal is to get it stripped down to the frame so I can start the long rebuilding process.   There is minor surface rust on the frame and swing arm and that just doesn't sit right with me, so it looks like I am going to need to sandblast it and powdercoat it.   Also, as I am going to cafe the bike I am going to need to get the seat I want set with the bars and tank to see if I am going to need to cut the frame itself and weld on a loop.

This  cb550 wheel is going to be my front wheel and disc.


This is my first question for you all, the bike came with a set of kawasaki carbs that John said could be fit to mount on the cb500.   I have never heard of this.   Also, my search of the internet has proven unfruitful.  Have any of you mounted kawasaki carbs on a honda cb or heard of this working?   

I will do a search on the kawsaki carb's serial number to find out what model bike it came off of and I will also provide some dimensions with a digital caliper, I am just being lazy at the moment.

The carbs:



And finally an image of my bike looking way prettier than she actually is due to the lighting.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Are you sure you want to tear down this bike or first get it running to see what it needs?

[Cityscapedview]

  That is an important question to address.   I know that a lot of people would want to get their bike on the road as soon as possible to go out and ride.   For me,  this project is more about learning and building than it is getting a motorcycle to ride.   I mean, at the end of the process I think she is going to be an awesome ride, but right now I just want to take my time and rebuild her into something beautiful.  It's probably going to take about a week to tear her down, but I'm thinking its probably going to be about a two year process of getting her finished to my standards.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

  That is an important question to address.   I know that a lot of people would want to get their bike on the road as soon as possible to go out and ride.   For me,  this project is more about learning and building than it is getting a motorcycle to ride.   I mean, at the end of the process I think she is going to be an awesome ride, but right now I just want to take my time and rebuild her into something beautiful.  It's probably going to take about a week to tear her down, but I'm thinking its probably going to be about a two year process of getting her finished to my standards.

I understand wanting to do a ground up rebuild, but you might want to get the motor running to see what is/is not working properly, rather than starting at complete disassembly.  You can also ride it and see what you like and dislike about it to get a better sense of purpose to your rebuild design.

Anyway, your bike. Just a suggestion.

[calj737]

Or get it running and rebuild the spare motor. Once thats done, tear the bike down and finish it up with a "Ready to go" power plant. Motor rebuild are usually the longest part of a full tear down and most costly.

As for the Kawi carbs, seems a heap of work that may not even be prudent. Carbs are "sized" for the chamber they serve. If these carbs for instance came off a Kawi 750, they'd be too large to feed a 500 motor, no matter how HiPo you go. If you want some sexy aftermarket, but appropriate carbs, Keihin CR-26s are very good candidates and theres a member who sells a ready-to-go rack for you.

[Cityscapedview]

  I am going to be rebuilding the stock cb500 carbs and using those.   I have never seen anyone use cross manufacturer carbs on a Honda CB before,  so I was curious if there was something I was missing.

[calj737]

Oh its been done, don't think that. I only said it may not be "prudent" given the origin of the carbs. And unless you're really building a much higher performance motor, the stock carbs work very well to feed the beast.

Rebuilding your carbs: Do NOT change or swap or replace any of the internal brass parts!!!!! They all need to be removed and cleaned beyond your expectation of necessary. There are very tiny holes in these parts that meter fuel, and they must be pristine clean. Carb rebuild kits are mostly junk, though bowl gaskets are needed. Buy the pre-formed type, not the generic round style. Keep everything from each carb labeled and separated in small tupperware and install back to their original carb body.

When you remove the brass pieces, take note of all stampings and write it down. Take notice of the position of the clip on the needle and write it down. All of this information will be very helpful later when you go to tune your bike (yes, 2 years from now you will have forgotten this stuff).

If you want your carbs rebuilt properly and competently by anyone else, a member here Harisuluv (James Hale) offers this service and he is very, very highly regarded and 100% trustworthy. Your carbs will come back exactly to spec and better than new. And no struggling on your end with it.

All of those screws on your bike are JIS, not Phillips. Buy a proper set of JIS bits to service and tear down your motor/carbs. This will save you more time and money than you spent buying the bike. Trust me.

[Cityscapedview]

Cal,  Let me just say that you are the man for reaching out and providing all that wonderful information.  I do appreciate it.

I learned about the JIS screws from FAQ when I first started doing research.  I bought a bit set, but I have become a big fan of this guy:

Vessel Megadora 980 Impacta
http://www.amazon.com/Vessel-Megadora-Impacta-P2x100-Screwdriver/dp/B003BI8HHQ?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

It's been really nice on all of those rusted old screws. 

I was able to do some work on the bike the last few days and I wanted to run you guys through my organization system.

I am a huge fan of the double zip lock bag system.   I first like to take a picture of whatever I am about to dissassemble and write down the part on a post it note or small piece of paper.   I then like to check the procedure with the shop manual to account for sequencing and wether a specialty tool is needed.   From that point, I put the nuts, washers, or screws in a sandwhich size zip lock bag with their appropriate label.  After the washers, nuts, and screws come out, I will remove the item and place it in a large zip lock bag with its appropriate label.   I then put the appropriate nut, washer, and screw ziplock in the larger ziplock with the larger assembly it belongs to.   To avoid having a million unorganized zip lock bags, I then place the assemblies into different milk crates that correspond with the portion of the bike they come from.  It doesn't hurt to write down all the parts in each crate so that when you aren't scrambling to look for a part later.

This is an example of the zip lock bag with labeled part.  *Also thank you forum member OneWheelDrive for shipping out this brake and master cylinder.



In terms of wiring,   I would strongly recommend using a book of these for organizing wire:



  I am not going to pretend like I will remember where all the wiring will go, so I have taken one numerical set on one connection of the wire, and the corresponding number with the other.  Here is a picture example of how the stickers look on one side of the wiring:



This is the progress I have made on the bike so far, as of today:


Next week I will pull the engine and start the rebuilding process.  I am deciding on a seat to do a mock up of the frame to determine if I need to cut it before sandblasing.

[calj737]

David - you will be fine in whatever you undertake. Anyone ever accuse you of OCD? Guess not 

It's pretty neat to see someone who is self-proclaimed take all the preparation and do some legwork first. Not that many would change their level of effort, but you will definitely score points for knowing and documenting things for later reference.

By the way, when you get a little time, pull down the color wire diagram. Then cross reference your number scheme to actual "service" destination. This will help you immensely in connecting and diagnosing any anomalies later. (It's super easy actually, color-to-color). It's like Garanimals for Electricty. (Dang, I hope you're old enough to understand that  )

A full nights labor awaits you in refreshing that wire harness. With it separated, but some .22 or .17 caliber rifle cleaning brushes, some electrics cleaner, and purge that harness of every bit of corrosion and grime in every nook and cranny. If you need replacement connectors, www.vintageconnections.com has kits available that dead on. And get their crimper too for perfect connections.

It's coming along quickly. It won't be 2 years at this rate!

[Bankerdanny]

I highly recommend that you bookmark this: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0 member SohRon's photjournal of the concour resto of a CB550. If you could find a factory assembly manual it wouldn't be as useful as this thread.

Personally I have been in the process of saving it into a word document as a restoration and assembly guide for my 550 project. Much of it will apply to your 500 as well.

[Cityscapedview]

Cal,  I showed the OCD comment to my lady and she laughed out loud.  So true.

Also,  I was thinking about replacing the electronics with something a little more modern,  don't know if I trust 40 year old electronics.  I will definitely do more research before reaching a conclusion.

Danny,  that thread is an awesome resource I will most definitely be using.   

This forum is such a wealth of information, I have nothing but love for you all.


Here is a quick mock up with the bars.  I love the feel of the clubmans, now I just need to get a seat.


If I were to draft a design out in AutoCad, do you all know of anyone who would be able to do a custom aluminum seat?  I remember reading someone on here had one done that way.

[calj737]

Custom aluminum seats are really well executed by two guys: Cliff Meyer (Indiana I believe) and Ian Halcott (West Coaster). Both do exceptional work and have featured in plenty of bikes here.

A word about Clubman's: while they are popular, they create 2 issues; tank conflicts in lock-to-lock, and they are best accompanied by rear sets. You will likely find the position of riding stretched and leaned over without moving your feet back will be rather uncomfortable and unsettling.

Just saying....

As for modern electronics, in my book, the only way to go is with an M-Unit from Motogadget. You can add their M-Lock (keyless ignition), M-Switches (do away with stock, clunky controls) and some of their lighting and gauges and go all top shelf. Of course, this does effect your budget proportionately.

[Bankerdanny]

I was about to say the same thing about clubmans and rearsets.

I had them on my Royal Enfield without rearsets and I found myself riding with my feet on the passenger pegs a lot. It kind of depends on how flexible your back is and how big or small your gut is. But in general I have found that the closer I can get my upper thigh to torso angle to 90 degrees the more comfortable I am.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I echo what Cal and Danny said about clubmans and rearsets.  The same goes for clip-ons, too.  The exception is if your clubmans are adjustable and bring the angle of the bars closer to neutral.  By adjustable, I am specifically referring to models such as Tommaselli Condor Clubmans.  See photos below to see how you can neutralize the angle of the bars.  Otherwise, rearsets are a good idea.

BTW: I like the color of your gas tank.

[Bankerdanny]

I'm going with M-bars on my 550, like the ones on Mooshie's 550, Dash. Lower than superbike bars (which I used on my previous 550) but sot so low as the clubmans.

[Cityscapedview]

Cal,  thank you again for some awesome information.  I was actually inspired towards the motogadget electronic systems after reading your build thread.

I will do more research on seats,  but I think I'm going to avoid cutting the frame.

Don,  the clubmans I picked up seem to fit my controls and posture perfectly.  I will most definitely be using rear sets in conjunction with the clubman bars.   I love the color of my tank,  but it looks better in the pictures then in real life.  I'll take a picture of the surface rust on it,  but I don't even know if it will be salvageable,  not to mention it has a huge dent in it.

Danny,  those bars are awesome.  Love the color of your bike.

[calj737]

Some patient and gentle wet sanding with very fine grit sandpaper, followed by rubbing compound with a buffer can do miracles to old paint.

This one was in worse shape than yours when I got hold of it:

[Cityscapedview]

Okay guys.  SO yesterday I pulled the engine with a buddy and we noticed that there is some significant scoring on the camshaft.  I've included some pictures of the camshaft scoring and we were wondering if this cam should be salvaged, or if I should use the cam I have from my other engine.   The pictures are as follows:





This damage I am assuming is a result of certain valves not being adjusted properly and causing tension and wear on the cam.  There is also some wear on the top of the valve inlet.     What do you guys think?

[strynboen]

thek the valve arm shafts in the valve cover.
.pull the endcaps and press on the 2 shaft. you can see inside.and see if if can be mowed/ up dovn.often the bores in the cover grovs oval ,,and the shaft moves araund..and make problems..
looks like the engine had run bad/old oil for looong time..

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That scoring in the first photo is pretty substantial.

[Cityscapedview]

Think they can be salvaged or do I need a new one?


It's party time boys!   Let the carb cleaning begin.

[calj737]

Think they can be salvaged or do I need a new one?

Scrap.

Only value in that cam and those rockers will be for a hard weld regrind from MegaCycle. Best to start shopping for a good (make sure you get measurements) 650 cam and matching rockers. Else, the cost of a MegaCycle cam with hard weld rockers just pushed you about $600 deeper into your rebuild. 

[calj737]

You're making swift work of getting this thing ready for reassembly. Looks like the carb on the far left (is that #1?) has some erosion on the float posts. If so, be very careful not to break those. They can be micro welded back by our very own illustrious Jim French, but the delay in shipping to GA and back may halt your progress.

[Cityscapedview]

Cal,
  Will a 650 cam and rockets fit on the 500 engine?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Think they can be salvaged or do I need a new one?

It's roached.  Go with a 650 cam if you can find one.

[calj737]

Yes they will. The 500/550/650 cams swap pretty well, and I always would encourage you to find the matching rockers when using a used cam. Pay close attention to the lobes when buying a used cam, and only buy it from someone you might actually know, or can get a vouch for.

I've bought a used one, was promised it was good and reliable. Upon receipt, it was worth nothing more than its scrap metal. If you can afford it, I'd rather use a MegaCycle 126-00 cam, but it will be 2-3x the expense.

[Cityscapedview]

Alright,
   I am going to take the cam from the other engine and see if it is in good condition as well.   I'll then see which valve inlets and spring assemblies are in the best shape and use  those.

If anyone does have a 650 in good condition with rockers let me know.

I'm going to build a work bench and work on splitting the bottom engine case today.