Author Topic: Carburetor mix ups...  (Read 1540 times)

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Offline 16vJustice

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Carburetor mix ups...
« on: April 30, 2016, 10:15:12 AM »
Hey guys, I have a question here that I'd like to pick your brains about. Long post, but any help is much apprectiated.

I'm a Honda 4 noob and just picked up a bone stock 1978 CB550K last week, ran/idled ok although when you full throttled it it would bog out and die (I assumed clogged mains) and it would only idle with a little bit of choke (assuming, once again, clogged slow jets). Other than that it seemed to run ok, and the previous owner said it ran pretty good when he parked it 6 months ago. I figured a good carb cleaning was in order.

Last night I pulled the carbs, and as I was taking them apart I noticed the serial number stamp on the carb body was 627B. Now, from what I've read these carbs are from a 72-73 CB500, and my bike is supposed to have the PD46C carbs.

Looking at the insides of these 627B carbs I see that they have 100 mains and 38 slow jets, which points towards someone maybe having re-jetted these in the past based on this : http://www.sohc4.net/cb550-faq/indexphp/cb500550-carb-specs

So, the big question is: should I just run these 627B carbs or should I source some PD46C or 069A carbs? This engine is going to be slightly modified in the future (pods, exhaust) so I don't feel I *need* the absolute 100% bone stock carbs the original engine came with, especially if the carb bodies are pretty the same for all CB500/550's (I can just change internals at that point).

The smaller question is, does this sound like a good base jetting for a stock 78 CB550K engine? I know the chart I posted shows leaner jets for the later years but was that based on performance or trying to curb emissions? It seems to me 100 mains and 40 slow jets would be a good performing baseline to tune off of. Orrrrrr should I just leave the 100 mains and 38 slows in there, give everything a good cleaning and tune and just go from there?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2016, 12:10:35 AM »
Quote
The smaller question is, does this sound like a good base jetting for a stock 78 CB550K engine? I know the chart I posted shows leaner jets for the later years but was that based on performance or trying to curb emissions? It seems to me 100 mains and 40 slow jets would be a good performing baseline to tune off of.
You're right. The CB550K3 was much critisised for running a bit too lean. This was to curb emissions.
Quote
Orrrrrr should I just leave the 100 mains and 38 slows in there, give everything a good cleaning and tune and just go from there?
Yes and consider yourself lucky you have the oldstyle Keihins and not the later PDs that are much harder to work on.
Now that you've pulled the carbs, it is a good opportunity to clean them. There's no need to separate them from the rack and there's no need to open the tops. So don't.
Here's what I would do.
1. Have little boxes 1-4 or jars ready, so you won't mix up the brass parts.
2. Remove, inspect and clean if needed floatpins, needles and seats. If you use small pliers (better not) to extract the floatpins, do not pinch them and do it gently. Some manage to break the towers. A little WD-40 at forehand may help. Check these parts carefully. You may polish them but... a little.
3. Unscrew slow jets (aka pilot jets) and inspect them. These are the jets that are most likely to get (partially) blocked when the bike is not used regularly. If you do not operate the bike regularly, you may need an additive to the fuel to keep the fuelsytem clean. You may soak these jets in a little carbcleaner. You can clean them with stranded copper wire or anything as long it's not harder than the brass it is made of.
4. Pull the main jets. They are easy to inspect and clean. Do not forget to inspect the small O-rings around them. When in doubt, replace!!! It's very important they'll seal well.
5 Now, with the main jets removed, it's easy to pull the needle jets aka emulsion tubes. For that you must bring the carbrack in the full throttle position in order to raise the needles inside (you will leave them and the slides where they are btw). When the needles are high up, you can pull the needle jets. Sometimes they fall out spontaneasly, sometimes you have to help them. You can use a matchstick or wooden toothpick and insert this from below into the tubes. By canting it and some wiggling you can pry them out. Spraying some WD-40 at forehand may help. Inspect the little holes in the tubes. You may find there's white stuff in them. These holes must all be open.
5. Remove from the sides of the carbbodies the airscrews and clean them. Do not loose the little springs.
6. Now spray carbcleaner in all the orifices of the carbbodies where you have removed parts. After a while repeat.
7. Note that the pilot circuit has no less than four orifices: 1. where the slowjet sits, 2. where the airscrew sits, 3. the tiny little orifice in the throat of the carb engineside just in front of the slide and 4. the opening in the mouth of the carb as shown in the pic below (pilot system air jet). Check that carbcleaner comes out all of these openings.
8. Check that carbvent openings (and attached tubes!) are open.
9. Check fuellines for appropiate length and diameter.* No kinks, no extra inline fuel filters.
10. Reassemble.

This is it. It's also a good opportunity to check the operation of the chokes and you may consider to renew the four 30,8 mm O-rings between the engine and the manifold as they often become hard over the years and will leak as a consequence.
* On the bikes that originally had these carbs, fuel lines standard length were 18 and 30 cm with the oldstyle petcock and 17 and 28 cm with the new type petcock. Ideal diameter is Ø 5,5 mm.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 02:25:48 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 05:11:24 PM »
Awesome, thanks for the info and advice! I'll do that this weekend and report back with how shes running.  ;)

Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 12:35:29 PM »
Ok, so I pulled the carbs apart and they looked pretty clean but I did a thorough cleaning anyways just to make sure. Nothing looked clogged or dirty either way though.

The only thing I noticed is that the floats were all set at around 14mm, so I set them to the stock 22mm spec these particular carbs call for.

Would this affect the driveability problems I was having? It seems with the floats set where they were it would run richer, which might have affected the full throttle operation (bad bog) but it doesn't seem it would have much to do with having to run with the choke on.

I replaced the intake manifold o-rings too, and I'm waiting on new carb boots to slap these on to report how it's running then.

Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 12:46:30 PM »
Also, it might be useful to note that I also changed the spark plugs and it looked like the engine has been running rich as the plugs were all pretty black.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 03:51:59 PM »
That's quite a bit to be off on the float height.

If the float is "too low" as measured in the manual, that'll mean that the fuel level in the bowl will be too high, which can definitely throw off your mixture and lead to flooding of the carbs.

I'd verify the fuel level in the bowls using the "clear tube" method - you can do this on the bench.

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Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 09:04:49 PM »
Ok, set everything up and put it back together this weekend, fired it up and rode it around. It runs great now!!! I put velocity stacks on it and upjetted to a 105 main, pulls through the rpm range smooth and fast, I love it!

However, something is irking me now, at idle I hear what sounds like a knocking noise. It almost sounds like the timing chain but as soon as I rev it out of idle the noise goes away and doesn't return until it gets down to idle again. I adjusted the timing chain and the valves beforehand, and it sounds the same as before I adjusted it so I don't think that has much to do with it.

I haven't synched the carbs yet and I hear that out of sync carbs can make these engines sound pretty bad, does this sound like a correct assumption? I'm going to sync them later this week either way, I'm just hoping to get some reassurance that this isn't something more involving...

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 11:16:12 PM »
What are you waiting for? Adjust camchain tensioner, check valves, check ignition timing and synch carbs. That's it.
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Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 11:55:46 PM »
I'm just waiting on the tool from my friend to do the sync, everything else has been done.  ;)

Offline Scott S

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 03:38:00 AM »
 The P.O. (or whoever worked on it) probably set the floats at 14mm because that's the spec for the later carbs (14mm or 17mm, depending on the year). You did  the right thing by going with 22mm.

 I'm surprised it runs that well with stacks and only a slight bump on the mains, but if it works for you....

 The knock you hear is often out of sync carbs. Did you bench sync them while they were off the bike? A good vacuum sync does wonders, but DO NOT sync them until you've adjusted the valves and set the timing. Do those two things FIRST, then vacuum sync.
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Offline 16vJustice

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Re: Carburetor mix ups...
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2016, 04:37:21 PM »
Ok so I've been in NYC for a few weeks, came back and sync'd the carbs and it's running ok.

Thing is, now WOT kills the bike, like you turned off a switch. If I rev it through the range at half throttle it revs great but any time I hit WOT it just dies unless I let it back down to half throttle, in which case it picks up again.

I'm confused as all hell, it seems like to kill the bike like that it would need to be absolutely starved of fuel at WOT. However the mains are clean and the floats adjusted.

Maybe time to take a look at the petcock?