Topic: lacing a wheel

[spider-man]

No actually it won't.

Getting them to all sound the same just implies that they are all at the same tension.

While this will get you in the ball park it tells you nothing about how true the rim is about the lateral or longituninal axis of rotation.

Your welcome to use the your method. I just wouldn't recommend it at 100 mph and I sure wouldn't be recommending it to the public at large.

YOu'll never see the pluck a spoke method in any manual as a way of checking rims.

Hahaha. Let's try this once more.    I wouldn't recommend "checking rims" by plucking a spoke either. Please note that I neither said nor implied that anyone should attempt that. You are correct that it will not work. To true a wheel, as I said, you really need a truing stand of some sort.

Plucking spokes is, however, an accurate measure of spoke tension, except perhaps for the tone deaf. Getting them to the same tone doesn't just imply they are the same, it confirms that they are.

I learned wheelbuilding first as a bicycle mechanic, and there are numerous manuals that recommend plucking spokes as an accurate method for ensuring uniform tension. Among them:

Lennard Zinn: "Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance" -- I don't have this before me, so I can't quote it, but it recommends plucking spokes in the chapter on wheelbuilding.

Jobst Brandt: "The Bicycle Wheel" -- "Tone is an accurate way to check uniformity."

"Mr. Bike" Sheldon Brown also mentions the method on his Web site.

And there's this from John Allen: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm

Yes, these are bicycle texts, but you did say the method was not recommended in "any manual." And the theory is the same, although a motorcycle wheel generally will carry much higher tension on its spokes. I always ask the rim manufacturer what is recommended when I do use my tension meter. 

Anyway, if your wheels failed at 100mph, it was because you misunderstood the procedure, not because the procedure itself is faulty. I recommend you give it another shot!

And just so this isn't misunderstood: Tensioning spokes is NOT THE SAME THING as truing a wheel. When building a wheel you don't just tighten the spokes and hit the road. Wheels must be trued!

[bill440cars]

       spider--man,

                         I think that, if you'll check, You said that the plucking method was the same as the dial indicator and I believe that is where you got kghosts attention.

                                                      Later on, Bill

[Hockers Choppers]

I think turtle said that. I missed it the 1st and 2nd time I read it too.

[spider-man]

       spider--man,

                         I think that, if you'll check, You said that the plucking method was the same as the dial indicator and I believe that is where you got kghosts attention.

                                                      Later on, Bill

Eh, fair enough. I must be getting senile.  I said dial indicator when I meant tension meter.

[bill440cars]

       spider--man,

                         I think that, if you'll check, You said that the plucking method was the same as the dial indicator and I believe that is where you got kghosts attention.

                                                      Later on, Bill

Eh, fair enough. I must be getting senile.  I said dial indicator when I meant tension meter.

           Hey listen spider--man, it could happen to any of us. In fact, I reread your and kghost's posts 2 or 3 times to be sure that I was on the right track. I haven't laced up a wheel yet but, my Grandfather could take a box of misc spokes, a hub and a rim, separate the off brand spokes from the ones that were for that wheel, assemble the wheel and true it up to a fair the well in a bit. His truing stand was the wheel secured in his vise (horizonally) by the axle (his vise was mounted on a heavy metal workbench) and he used a homemade fixture placed by the edge of the rim, to check for trueness. Now keep in mind that this man had only a 6th grade education My Grandfather and my Uncle Henry had to quit school to run the gas station/garage/blacksmith shop to take care of the family when my Great Grandfather went blind. The garage/blacksmith shop evolved into a full garage and the gas station evolved into an Indian Motorcycle shop and went on from there.

                                                           Later on, Bill

[Hockers Choppers]

Thats awesome, My grandpa only had a 6th grade education, left to work on the farm, and he was the smartest man I've ever known! Its amazing what you learn in the "real world". He could make anything out of wood or metal. Left this world at the age of 94! Left a bottle of A&A and a few cans of brew in the fridge. Damn good man!!

[kghost]

Once again Bill is the cool voice of reason.

Appreciated brother.

Spidey sorry about that, I took you to mean pluck and hit the road.

I was concerned that some folks would take it that way too when in fact thats half way there.

We don't want anyone hurt.




Yes definitely check for uniform tension of the spokes.

And Definitely make sure they are true on a fixture.

I'm qouting from memory here but I believe the runout is + or - .010

[spider-man]

Once again Bill is the cool voice of reason.

Appreciated brother.

Spidey sorry about that, I took you to mean pluck and hit the road.

I was concerned that some folks would take it that way too when in fact thats half way there.

We don't want anyone hurt.




Yes definitely check for uniform tension of the spokes.

And Definitely make sure they are true on a fixture.

I'm qouting from memory here but I believe the runout is + or - .010

I apologise as well, and I thank you all for correcting me. 

[snickram]

http://www.whitehorsepress.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=12&products_id=2271

Could be a good resource?

[starion88esir]

I finally got my spoke set. I layed the rim out and the print outs from both the honda chopper book as well as the pictures from topics on this site. I can only get the flat spokes to lace. The bent spokes do not lace. If I put them facing the opposite way the hub is offset so far to one side. So I flipped them over so the bent ones would lace inside like the flat ones and it would allow the rim to sit centered with the hub. BUT the straight spokes are in the way and have to be moved to lace them and once they are re-laced they hit each other. What the hell am I doing wrong?

[merc2dogs]

what hub do you have? maybe a bad match between hub and spokes. I've got 5 stock honda hubs here from sohc 750's, and two of them use what look like unique spokes. and one is definately different. 

 the spokes with the longer bends go from inside to the out, the short/sharp bends go from the outside in.
 

  Ken.

[starion88esir]

It's a stock hub for my 76 750F so far as I know. I can't use any of them from the inside out or the rim and hub will not center up with each other.

I wasn't aware of any differences in the hubs.

Here are a few pics of the hub laced to the stock rim and just the hub itself:

[merc2dogs]

  The 76F is one of the odd hubs I have, the 'long' spoke on them is shorter than the long spoke on the other hubs, haven't compared, but looks as though the short one -may- be shorter too.

 I have the spokes in a can, and a few others around, I'll see if I can get some pics together and hopefully that will help.

 The flange on the F hub looks the same as the 78 hub I have, flanges taper down pretty narrow at the outside edge, and without miking them, they look narrower. the rest of the hubs have thicker flanges that are almost square all the way up to the edge.

Ken.

[merc2dogs]

http://picasaweb.google.com/merc2dogs/Hubs

 shows pics with differences in hubs/spokes.

 Can't help much more than that now, But I'll check a few things out and let you know what I come up with.

Ken.

[Roach Carver]

go to tas classics. they sell a kit that laces for the inside only. I bought both kits and had the same problem that you are having. it is like the outside spokes dont have enough bend. With the TAS kit I had no problem lacing it up.

[Roach Carver]

http://home.comcast.net/~tas-motorsports/Home.html

[starion88esir]

Thanks for the link, my search was falling short.

So do they just offer one style of kit or two?

[merc2dogs]

go to tas classics. they sell a kit that laces for the inside only. I bought both kits and had the same problem that you are having. it is like the outside spokes dont have enough bend. With the TAS kit I had no problem lacing it up.

do you mean all spokes are on the same side of the flange? (all inside?)

 if so are they laced with only one crossing?

 I'm having trouble visualizing it, anyway you couid post a pic?

maybe just not reading it right

Ken.

[paulages]

i had some problems lacing mine up, but they ended up working fine, after several thousand miles. my outers, i believe, had a slight bend to them where they attach to the rim. i was worried that said bend would cause metal fatigue under stress, but i check the tension every once in a while and have had no problems. the inner only kits are not supposed to be as strong, but then again, i wonder about bent spoke as well..

by the way, what does your screen name mean? the use of "88" often is used as a code for the nazi SS. i'm sure you probably don't mean it that way, but growing up in the south, i encounted far to much of said fascism...

[putnaja1]

I think his name is a car-  1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESIR..  It is the same car as a Dodge Conquest TSi- I used to have a 1987, and I loved that car!!!

If you've never seen one, it kinda looks like a squared off Porsche 944.  Here's a pic:

[USN20]

This is what a 16" looks like on a CB750K using the inner spoke (kit) lacing pattern:

[merc2dogs]

Great, thanks for posting those pics, I've never seen them laced that way, but then don't work with 16's too often.

actualy looks pretty clean.

thanks again
Ken

[paulages]

I think his name is a car-  1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESIR..  It is the same car as a Dodge Conquest TSi- I used to have a 1987, and I loved that car!!!

If you've never seen one, it kinda looks like a squared off Porsche 944.  Here's a pic:

gotcha. i figured it was something like that, but you never know. boneheads like to creep around on the internet with names containing "88" , "1488" and other nazi references.

[rhinoracer]

Hi, I'm lacing my new rims to the stock hubs using Buchanan's spokes, the butted type for my K1 750.

Inner spokes went in with no trouble but the outer spokes I had to force in because of the thicker than stock diameter and the tight bend.

Anyway, to thread the nipples on the outer spokes I have to force them against the hub and they get curved when tightening the nipple.

Is this bending of the spokes acceptable? Or do I have to cut a relief into the hub flange so the spoke back side doesn't make any contact with it?

One more question:

On disassembly I measured 7.5mm from the rim face to the hub face on the drum side. But my notes show the rim face above the hub face if laying flat on the floor instead of the hub protruding above the rim .... never mind I just answered this one.

[bwaller]

The last couple rear wheels I built it was necessary to stress the outers slightly. Once tight they don't appear bent though. I talked to Buchanans & they said no problem and there hasn't been in a few thousand miles.