Author Topic: lacing a wheel  (Read 77068 times)

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Offline Steve F

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #325 on: March 27, 2009, 06:39:19 AM »
If there IS offset, to which side and how much, and how do you measure it when lacing up and truing a new wheel?
I have a new front rim and spokes on order and will be doing this within the next couple of weeks, and would like to know.
The stock front wheel ('76 750F) is exhibiting signs of being offset to the left, as it BARELY clears the front fender brace, and there's more room on the right side.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #326 on: March 27, 2009, 06:45:36 AM »
If there IS offset, to which side and how much, and how do you measure it when lacing up and truing a new wheel?
I have a new front rim and spokes on order and will be doing this within the next couple of weeks, and would like to know.
The stock front wheel ('76 750F) is exhibiting signs of being offset to the left, as it BARELY clears the front fender brace, and there's more room on the right side.

Well, its become an interesitng discussion. One point is, if there was a significant offset, the spokes would be different lengths, which they are not.  But nowehere in print is there a definitive statement one way or the other.

I like the idea of centering the rear. Then checking the front to be not just parallel, but that the centerlines match. Then see if there is an offset.

Until I get hard evidence, I'm sticking with no offset, matching centerlines to get a true running machine. OCICBW

Does your F have dual discs? It seems that is an issue with the offset question. Would the right side disc clear everything if your wheel was centered? Assuming it is not.

A simple elegance dictates to me that they should run on the same centerline. But, once again, ICBW.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 06:48:59 AM by MCRider »
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #327 on: March 27, 2009, 06:54:40 AM »
Just got my April issue of Classic Bike (Bar code number 9 770142 890180) and there is a great article in there on how to build a cheap LASER wheel alignment tool.

If I was in business still or racing i would sure do one
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Offline coyotecowboy

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #328 on: March 27, 2009, 10:42:11 AM »
That is the direct quote from Mark out of the FAQ
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Offline jaknight

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #329 on: March 27, 2009, 10:58:34 AM »
Hi Guys,

I believe, from my end of the conversation, we are kind of talking apples and oranges here.

On my bike, the K4, and on many other members bikes, we are talking the front wheel/rim is, when you are sitting on the bike, physically located on the front axle more to the left side of the center distance between the forks.  It is not because of the way the rims are laced.

One member somewhere on this board once-upon-a-time, said Honda did this because of involvement of the forks used for the placement of the front disc brake unit and rotor and the speedometer/cable unit on the right side of the axle.  Honda also kept the forks the same configuration on each side.  If you look at the forks on the K series, the holes and flanges for mounting the brake unit on the left hand fork also exist on the right hand fork.  In fact, did they not change the disc unit from the right hand side to the left?  Further, Honda did in fact change the removal of the rear axle also, originally the axle was withdrawn from the left side of the machine, to a change....... as on mine, where the axle is removed from the right side of the machine and moved the axle spacer from the left hand side to the right side.

My bike has a threaded hole on the right fork, just as on the left fork, for mounting a disc brake unit.  Their intention, according to the mentioned posting member, was to be able to add a second disc brake unit at some time in the future, but with the room needed for the speedometer gearing unit and cable, they had to move the wheel physically more to one side...........

The above ideas are not mine, they are the best I can recall from the mentioned members posting.

For what its worth........... I read this about maybe 4 years ago.

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« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:56:51 AM by jaknight »
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Offline markb

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #330 on: March 27, 2009, 11:44:58 AM »
I have a K0 and just relaced both wheels.  I did a lot of reading and measuring before I started.  This is my opinion.  I think the rims should be centered on the hubs.  I meticulouly measured mine before and my front was right on center and the rear, if anything was 1mm toward the sprocket side (could have been just acceptable runout).  I relaced both rims centered.  I think the offset of the tires to the forks or the swing arm is created by the spacers on the axles.  Like I said, just my opinion.
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Offline Toxic

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #331 on: March 27, 2009, 11:48:33 AM »
I think we are confusing the alignment of the wheels front to back with the individual wheel being laced up so that the hub is equal distance from the rim's edge.

I'm glad I'm not the only confused one.

I'm glad you took those measurements, I didn't think to.

I'm going to lace them up centered and instal them that way if I notice any kind of shake or shimmy then I'll know where to look.

Thanks for the input.

Offline jaknight

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #332 on: March 27, 2009, 12:01:11 PM »
You Got It Toxic,

Yes, I am sorry if I have added to the confusion.

I believe lacing and truing to the hub is a good technique.

Just a trivia add on............ I guess Honda never got to the dual front disc brakes until the Goldwing series?

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #333 on: March 27, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »
I read the tutorial on rim lacing and Hondaman's FAQ and there is a vague reference to rim offset on our bikes.
On A 72 CB750 are the rims laced so they are offset at all?

If so how much and how do you accomplish this.  A search for rim offset didn't turn up much.

thanks in advance.

Gary

On K1-K6 for sure, there is about 3-4mm offset. The K0 bikes with the forks that could only mount 1 disc were not affected. I don't know if this was fixed on the "F" bikes: never have measured one of those.
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #334 on: March 27, 2009, 06:10:56 PM »
What about ComStar wheels...do they have offset?  I doubt it.  What is the best way to start lacing up a wheel to ensure that there is no offset without too much trouble?  Do you have some way of measuring the distance from the side of the rim to the spoke flange on the hub?  Is there an easier way using a home made jig?  When I laced up the rear rim, I just went methodically around the wheel spoke-by-spoke hand tightening the spokes until everything was snug and that each of the spokes were showing the same amount of thread, and then proceeded to do the indicating and torqueing process.  Everything came out great, and I didn't even consider any offset issues .........  :-\

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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #335 on: March 27, 2009, 06:23:18 PM »
I think you're most worried about where the centerline of the front wheel is relative to the rear.  This makes things a little "noodle-bending" when you start thinking about CG and moment... but ah heck, just start 'em and twist the throttle. 
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #336 on: March 27, 2009, 06:35:38 PM »
The wheel I have on the bike in the avatar is something that I bought off fee-bay a few years ago, in really great shape.  I could have been off of any year bike, but it worked out so far, except that the tire is really close to the fender on the left side.  I'm just gonna lace up the new rim to the hub as close to symetrical as I can, and go from there.  I'm thinking that if I HAVE to, I'll get the wheel/hub/tire centered to the forks by making a special axle spacer to shift the whole assembly to the right if need be.

Offline 754

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #337 on: March 27, 2009, 08:08:14 PM »
I just took a 500 wheel apart, w/o taking tire off..pita..
 Then I shaved the ribs off the hub, .. after I got the water and grease out of the middle.. :o

 I was studying the hub to see about trimming weight off and noticed the disc surfaces are NoT the same offset.. so if you are measuring offset to this rather than the spoke flanges, you will have an offset wheel..
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Offline Really?

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #338 on: March 27, 2009, 09:26:43 PM »
Ok, now thanks for freaking me out.  How do you lace the rim centered?  The FAQ said nothing about centered (i think) for lacing the rim.  Unless it was supposed to be understood by the person reading it.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #339 on: March 27, 2009, 09:41:42 PM »
Ok, now thanks for freaking me out.  How do you lace the rim centered?  The FAQ said nothing about centered (i think) for lacing the rim.  Unless it was supposed to be understood by the person reading it.

Generally speaking, if you have equal length spokes, which we do, and you lace and true with equal amounts of threads showing or almost showing thru the nipples, its going to be pretty close to center.

I sight thru the valve stem hole, over the center of the hub to the centerline of the rim, across the top and bottom of the hub. If that site line passes the center of the hub, I'm centered. I can see 1/2 mm, about 20thou. I have (had) a micrometer eye.   :D  True in my heyday at a tuneup shop, I could tell you a plug gap to 2thou from 20 thou to 35 thou by looking. THose days are gone.

Some sophisticated truing stands have gauges for offsets. Mine does not.  I've been happy with results so far.
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Offline 754

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #340 on: March 27, 2009, 09:57:00 PM »
Eyecrometer.. huh...my brother says he has one.. :o

........................................................................................

Did NONE of you guys EVER read any books on MC maintainence?

Simply put a straightedge against the sides of rim & measure to spoke flanges or  whatever reference point is used..
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #341 on: March 27, 2009, 09:59:54 PM »
Eyecrometer.. huh...my brother says he has one.. :o

........................................................................................

Did NONE of you guys EVER read any books on MC maintainence?

Simply put a straightedge against the sides of rim & measure to spoke flanges or  whatever reference point is used..

Good idea. As far as reading a book...no,

That's what you're here for...  ;D
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Offline 754

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #342 on: March 27, 2009, 10:08:20 PM »
gotta admit.. never heard of sighting thru the valve stem hole.. :o

 but aint gonna help on a hub with offset.

 I have not laced a wheel in a while..
 but I always remember when a guy dropped off a BSA hub and new chrome spokes for 16 in. Hub had small flange on one side, big on the brake side.. anyway spoked it about 4 different ways, and had no reference to go by.. .. think it was  cross 3 on 1 side and cross 4 on the other.. sonmething like that.

 On H-D hubs for a lot of years inner all went the same way, then they switched.. more fun..
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Are our spoked rims offset?
« Reply #343 on: March 27, 2009, 10:49:30 PM »
Here's the whole story of how "Jimbo" Jim Chamberlain and I first "discovered" the front wheel offset phenomenon, the related head shake, and the fix:

Jim had a K0 sandcast bike, one of the very first in Central Illinois. He wanted a dual-disc setup, like he saw at Daytona in 1970. But alas, his early K0 only had the mounts for a disc on the left side fork. The K1 had just come out in 1970 with forks that could fit 2 discs (specifically so Honda could use them at Daytona), if you made your own right-hand triangle mount (all you needed was the lefthand one and some washers and a file to make one). This was all happening just as I had started working with him in the Peoria shop, Brown's Sport Center Honda. A friend of his came in to buy a 750, and Jim talked him out of the dual-fork setups, paying the guy an undisclosed amount of cash, then swapping the front ends between the bikes. Upon his first test drive, Jim noticed the new headshake phenomenon, pronounced because his front tire was also somewhat worn, as he had promised the other guy would still get his new tire and had dutifully swapped tires, too. So, the following weekend, as a test, Jim put a new tire on his: the headshake remained. When his friend's bike came in for the 500 mile maintenance, Jim talked him into a "swap-back" test: suddenly Jim's K0 had the old forks and wheel back (with a new tire from the newere bike) and the wobble disappeared. Jim wanted the 2-disc setup badly enough that he swapped it all back to the original agreement, and the K1 owner rode off, never knowing how much better his bike handled than most K1 bikes.

In the swapping process, we did notice the wheel rim was closer to the fork on the disc side, though. So, a few weeks later, Jim retrued the wheel over to the middle, guessing it at 4mm difference, using the fender's center as "reference". The headshake disappered instantly. This posed a different problem, though, when his 2nd disc arrived: the reversed caliper had alignment problems, hitting the disc at an angle, and scraping the rim sometimes. So, he offset the wheel back the other way about 2mm ("split the difference") and filed away the offending corner of the caliper. In the end, he swapped the forks around and ran the calipers behind the fork legs to reduce the heavier feeling that the extra caliper adds to the steering when it is "up front". In our last discussion on the topic, he believed that one day, when it wasn't college finals season, he was going to realign the rim back over to center, to see if he could get away with it in the corrected location and with reversed calipers. It was about then that I moved to Macomb, and I never talked with him again, except by a couple of letters, regarding transistorized ignitions like the ones I build now: that was THEIR beginning, circa 1972.

So, like I told McRider: it's a long story, but true, and out in plain sight: if you can find a sandcast bike's owner with the asymmetric forks, we could maybe find out the distances between the wheel rim and the inside of the forks, both sides, and compare that to the later bikes. You'll probably find them to be off about 3mm or so, toward the disc side, on the later bikes, and more even on the early ones. Be sure to discuss wheel bearing slop with the K0 owner (i.e., make sure there isn't any) and  and make sure the fender is not used for reference here, as most of them get bent and twisted with fork activity over the years, so they are not centered any more. Try to find a good way to masure it: that's often hard for the novice who wants to use a ruler instead of long-head calipers or transfer verniers. I have not yet met a K0 owner here at SOHC4 who is also "machinist" enough to have the tools needed to make the measurements.
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Offline JLeather

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Trouble lacing a new rear rim
« Reply #344 on: April 05, 2009, 07:02:00 PM »
So, I'm lacing an Akront 4.25x18" rim to my rear hub but it's not going so well.  The rim was ore-drilled before I got it and it seems that the angles of the holes is a little off. As you can see in the pics this is putting a slight curve in my spokes.  Even the outside spokes are being bowed out, which means that the holes are angled too far out.



I'm assuming this is going to weaken my wheel? I'm planning on putting quite a bit of horsepower through this sucker and it needs to hold up. Is it possible (and advisable) to alter the angle of the holes in the rim?  How should I best fix this?

Second question, the spokes for it were listed as lacing an 18" rim to a stock Honda rear hub. The spokes for the outside holes are fine, but the ones for the inside holes are too long by about 3/16". They've got enough threads, I've got them all tight and they didn't bottom out. Can I just shorten them? Or, could I just grind off the excess after the wheel is laced?


Offline 736cc

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Re: Trouble lacing a new rear rim
« Reply #345 on: April 05, 2009, 07:17:02 PM »
 Where did you get the spokes? There should be 20 inner and 20 outer spokes and have different hook angles and lengths when compared. Grinding off excessive length sometimes occurs but not often (unless because its a non-orig rim which may different dimensions). Are you saying the rim holes were drilled? That sounds like an abortion. And is the hub from a 77/78 K? That hub is made for 17" spokes.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 07:19:59 PM by 736cc »

Offline JLeather

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Re: Trouble lacing a new rear rim
« Reply #346 on: April 05, 2009, 07:26:52 PM »
The hub's from an earlier K, I think a 74 or 75, just one I had lying around.  The spokes were an old kit specifically labeled "Honda 750 rear hub to 18" rim" and since the Akront isn't a drop-center rim they should have fit.  It is obviously a non-original rim, so I suppose I *might* nned to grind off the excess length but I found it odd that all the inner spokes were too long but all the outer spokes were the right length.  Yes, there are 20 inners and 20 outers and they have different angles and I used the correct ones for inside/outside.  The ones that are bent more than 90* are the outside and the ones bent less than 90* are the inside.  IIRC they were different lengths, but only slightly.  The rim cam pre-drilled supposedly for a CB750, but like I said it's drilled 100% backwards which is why I had to lace it in a pattern that was reversed from stock.  It appears to me that it was drilled for a hub that is wider than the one I've got.  Did any year CB750 use a wider hub?

Offline Scrubs

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Smaller front wheel on 750k
« Reply #347 on: April 15, 2009, 04:46:40 AM »
I want to put an 18" front wheel on my '74 750k cafe. I figured while I was doing that - I might try a dual disc set-up.
Does any one happen to know of any classic looking (spoked) wheels from another model - that would be a direct bolt on replacement which I could relativly easily fit some modern brakes to - perhaps all from the same bike?

Or is it likely a case of building some more and using my stock hub?



Offline Triffecpa

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Re: Smaller front wheel on 750k
« Reply #348 on: April 15, 2009, 05:53:15 AM »

I think that you are going to have to build one.  You might try and CB360 or a CB350f/Cb400F wheel.  They are 18 inchers.  Axle size is the same if I'm not mistaken.  Might have to fiddle with the spacers as the smaller bikes have fork tubes closer together.  May be able to use the 750 axle and spacers.  Nothing is going to be a straight swap. 

Tracy

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Smaller front wheel on 750k
« Reply #349 on: April 15, 2009, 08:07:28 AM »
Likely some other manufacturer had a spoked wheel, dual disk capability, and 35mm or larger forks.  You could do a complete front end swap from the triple tree foreward, so as not to re-engineer too much.