Author Topic: Gentlemans Express Cb550  (Read 20349 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Tews19

  • I am no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,433
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2016, 01:32:45 PM »
If carbs are off you will have 37 first pull, middle pull 44hp, and third pull 38hp...

This is weird TBH. I can't see how you are rich with 98 mains... scratching my head.
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2016, 02:06:40 PM »
Good advice Cal. Luckily there isn't a clock running on the dyno time.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2016, 02:53:24 PM »
Same Tews. All I can really think of it doesn't like the stock needle position and it's too rich down low, oil blow from the rings still settling in, or weak spark. Timing is spot on. We will be tuning between dyno pulls so I hopefully we will see numbers a lot higher than you are mentioning lol.

Offline Tews19

  • I am no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,433
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2016, 03:08:41 PM »
I have the 605 big bore kit like you. 650 cam, stage 2 head work from MReick and had 44hp on my best pull. Motogpwerks exhaust as well.
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,449
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2016, 04:04:41 PM »
Are they oil fouled?

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2016, 04:26:48 PM »
Really Tews? Was hoping to be in the low 50s.

Bwaller: they aren't oily. But I've never seen oil fouled plugs so I'm not sure how they would look any different than rich fouled plugs.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2016, 04:54:13 PM »
I have the 605 big bore kit like you. 650 cam, stage 2 head work from MReick and had 44hp on my best pull. Motogpwerks exhaust as well.

Is that the cruzinimage regular compression kit?
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,235
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2016, 04:56:21 PM »
Really Tews? Was hoping to be in the low 50s.

Bwaller: they aren't oily. But I've never seen oil fouled plugs so I'm not sure how they would look any different than rich fouled plugs.

When oil burns it leaves a greasy residue, oil fouled plugs may be the same color as rich fouled plugs but the oil fouled plugs will be greasy black, rich fouled plugs will be dryer and black. Ever felt the exhaust on a car or bike thats clearly blowing blue {oil} smoke..? It will be black and slightly greasy.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2016, 05:58:20 PM »
Well that's got me thinking?!!. It really could be oil fouling, for the rings not being set. It is a little darker and not chalky black. Is that common with a super fresh motor? What's the cure?

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,235
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2016, 06:10:20 PM »
If you're burning oil you'll be blowing some bluish smoke...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,449
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2016, 06:43:02 PM »
Tell Paul the engine is fresh and some slow pulls on the dyno is a good approach to seating rings.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2016, 09:05:11 PM »
Black smoke is what I'm seeing. Bike at most has 15 miles on her, so I'm sure that the rings haven't set yet. But then not being jetted correctly, I can't really put the miles on her to set them. Double edged sword type of thing. Good call on the dyno pulls Bwaller. Hopefully those slow pulls will give us enough info to jet properly.
It is the cruzinimage piston set cafe fan. No offense Tews but with all the work we did I'd be kinda bummed if I only saw 6hp over stock.

Offline Tews19

  • I am no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,433
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2016, 07:13:33 AM »
Yes the cruzinimage 605 piston kit off eBay. I am going to get it dyno'd soon this season since the carbs are all syncd
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2016, 07:26:22 AM »
Good point Cal. You are exactly right

Tews:I bet though that you'll see better numbers now with your carb sync.
Even with my carbs not jetted correctly now, this is the fastest cb550 I've ever been on. Dropped a fair amount of weight which is probably the main difference.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 08:00:54 AM by Camrector »

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,474
  • Central Texas
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2016, 08:15:10 AM »
If carbs are off you will have 37 first pull, middle pull 44hp, and third pull 38hp...

Can you really ride the difference?


The  "butt dyno" may feel the difference.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2016, 10:13:36 AM »
If carbs are off you will have 37 first pull, middle pull 44hp, and third pull 38hp...
This is probably very close on the numbers. A 650 cam, larger low compression pistons won't do much for you in the HP arena, and your carbs are stock, not "heavy breathers".

Never spend the money to make a vintage bike a "fire breather". Spend it because you enjoy it, love the final product, and disregard the fact that for 1/2 as much you could buy a brand new UJM that would put you on your butt through an intersection. Who cares, right? Its yours and you have built it. At the end of the day, HP is about bragging rights, and its paper, not reality. Can you really ride the difference?

Yes, building a custom bike or fire breather engine will almost assuredly not prove to be a good financial investment for resale profit.  Do it because you love it and want to enjoy it. 
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #91 on: July 28, 2016, 02:42:27 PM »
Oh no, please tell me Cam is not morphing into JWilde - designer faux fur "cut" vest and all.  Of course, our former Instacelebrity never had such a nice looking bike to post up on Instagram.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2016, 03:00:33 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D
I'm more into tailored suits and Vintage Burgundy than most of my contemporaries.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2016, 03:03:38 PM »
But hopefully it is helping everyone's resale value!

Online HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,083
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2016, 08:22:11 PM »
The power question: mostly the 500/550 engine suffers from lack of breath due to (stock) a too-early spark advance curve and a slight mismatch in size of the 22mm carbs with the intake valve size. But, since the intake runners are also sized to the 22mm carbs, bolting on 24mm carbs doesn't help much because it won't then mix right in the all-important 5000-6000 RPM range where this engine first gets it legs. Those I know who solved this in the intake area bored the intake castings bigger (and thin!) to match some 24mm carbs (I have NO clue where they got those, though) and did the usual things to the intake and exhaust ports above the valves, to the point that I saw 4.00x18 tires leaving rubber and smoke on the pavement at the nightly drags on those (2) bikes. They had stock cams, though, so their ET was still not real exciting, but stoplight contests were much easier. I moved away from that area the summer they were finding new cams, never heard how it turned out for them, but I did see some 500-4 bikes roadracing here in CO when I arrived, sporting Action Fours cams and 522cc (I think that was the size) pistons at 9.4:1 CR (and some non-stock cams). They were 10K RPM bikes and did well, and heralded their front straights with a great GP sound as they headed into 5th gear, great fun! (Now that track is shut down, drat...) One had a 4-2 exhaust set with megaphones, the other had long straight pipes turned up on the back, next to the axle, with Snuff-R-Nots in the ends. Those (roadracer) guys had gone to the trouble of installing 520 chains and sprockets for the lighter weight, alloy wheels, and small (roadrace tread) tires to reduce the unsprung weight, and it paid off for them.

All the elements are there to pull 50 HP out of these engines with enough time and $$, but it takes some commitment (like BWaller does) to get it there, and no small amount of maintenance to keep it there. The gearbox is a case in point: the gears are relatively small (to make a small crankcase) and are hindered with the Hy-Vo chain (lower power transfer than regular chains in equal size, but smoother and quieter), so exceptional lubrication (no popcorn, please? I won't expound those details here...) will release some of this, and this was proven over and over by me and my friends with the 500-4 back in the 1972-3 era (before the 550 came along).  I was sad to never get to dyno my 500 like I did many 750s, but I think it was a stellar 35 HP when I got it, and by the next summer was a 100+ MPH bike, sitting upright in the seat,  without disassembling the engine (or modifying the carbs). Honda's state-of-tune as shipped was aimed at markets like the US East Coast, British cities and Euro burgs, who were clamoring for a Four but, "...does it have to be so big?..." and in that realm it did just what they wanted.  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2016, 07:51:02 AM »
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2016, 12:19:10 PM »
Got her pretty close now. 2.75 and 3 turns out on the mixture screws.
Still at all stock settings, and no foam/resistance in the air box. Going to try stepping down to 35 pilots and maybe 95mains. But the plugs are reading better. Dyno also next week.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2016, 01:36:33 PM »
Exactly Cal. Different jets.
But I can as well as Sinister confirm that 2.75-3 turns out, leaned us out.
Still just funny to me that a hotter cam, port and valve work, and a open exhaust wouldn't run richer.
I understand that a bigger motor would pull more vacuum, but I figured I'd be in the land of Tews.
Jets on the way.

Offline Camrector

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2016, 03:00:58 PM »
Well we are dialed in perfect! After inspecting the carbs, getting ready for a jet change we noticed the pilots were actually #40s. Boneheads!!! Swapped those with the stock #38s and we were gold. Wideband is reading 13.5 at idle, 14.2 at half throttle, and 14.8 at full. Plugs are reading a beautiful Beyoncé brown.
This is also with the foam ring around the SD air box. So final settings are 98 mains
38 pilots, 4th position on the needle, air screws 1.5 turns out.
So just waiting for Works to ship the new shocks and we are done.
Maybe a front fender too in the future

Offline Tews19

  • I am no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,433
Re: Gentlemans Express Cb550
« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2016, 03:06:07 PM »
Congrats!
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.