Author Topic: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am  (Read 4359 times)

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Offline ElCheapo

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Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« on: November 21, 2006, 12:43:23 PM »
I have wedding client from Concept Photography. I have to post I know I said I would not......but this is the only place for this....

1. I took the pics.... - per contract and above the time frame..... Meanwhile Grandma dies an I have to travel to AZ. Grandpa gets sick. in and out of hospital. He was not supposed to wear down and fade away.
2. I processed their ugly faces (black teeth and all)
(I tell the bride I will toss in 100 printed pictures for free for the delay in delivery)
(In here bride beats on my 200 year old door on my Victorian home about 300 times (no exaggeration) and rings door bell 150 times to cause $300 of damage to the door) :o
3. I delivered the pics, less discs - per contract to her "victim" hubby. Tell him they have to pay the remaining balance to get the discs for reprint and the copyright release.

My wife adds that there will be criminal charges and a restraining order filed if she shows up again. ;D

4. Served with papers from them... (did a jig  ;D ) To Super Freak  ;D


I can can tell you guys at this point that I have never been more happy to be sued in small claims court. I have a signed contract from them for the service that they refuse to pay for.

I already called my lawyer (the city attorney) to make a time to meet. I will counter sue them for $65 an hour (my time) plus my lawyers fees.

I can tell you my lawyer is not one to be trapped in a close quarters duel of words with. I have been there.... It's like fighting with me  ;D He may spoon out your eyes and sell them to your mother and make her dance to get them. And then charge people to see it.  ;D

Any ideas?

Even The haters of me would have to say kick thier ass  8) :D ;D

Before stupid: $250
After stupid: $1520 My time and legal fees. Plus the damages to the door.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 02:07:21 PM by ElCheapo »
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Offline my78k

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 01:33:50 PM »
EC, I'll throw in the usual tag line that accompanies most posts on this forum and ask that you show some pics...not of the damaged door but rather the psycho bride and her black teeth!

Deenis


Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 01:38:53 PM »
EC, I'll throw in the usual tag line that accompanies most posts on this forum and ask that you show some pics...not of the damaged door but rather the psycho bride and her black teeth!

Deenis



Wish I had some of the black teeth pics..  ;D  But I work in real time with the originals so there is no before and after  :-\ . I had to do this because it ate so many resources on my laptop it was not even funny. A wedding can eat over 1 gig of space on a hard drive (usually - 2 gig) . I do not want to give them any fuel at this point so I will refrain from posting her pics. No fuel for slander suit, you know what I mean.

After this thread I will go back to my corner.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 01:41:13 PM by ElCheapo »
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Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 01:43:59 PM »
Photog to Photog: What is their complaint? It sounds as if they got what they contracted for. Ugly isn't your fault! It sounds as if you might have been a little late on delivery(?) But providing them with extra prints should more than make up for it.
Releasing all the files before payment would hurt you. Why would you do that? Copyright is our only (and very important) protection.
I did a catalogue a few years ago, and the client printed it, and distributed it at an international trade show before we were paid. I filed the images with the Library of Congress and informed the client that if we were to take them to court, standard awards are 3 times the market value for the images, plus court costs, and because the Catalogue had been distributed, they would have to retrieve every copy that was handed out, or pay penalties for each unretrieved copy. They paid. I was burned once in a copyright infringement situation. ONCE. It was a 30,000.00 learning lesson.
Don't back down. don't give them anything until they pay.
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Offline mb3000gt

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 01:49:00 PM »
EC, sorry but you can't coutnerclaim for your lost time or attorney fees. you can, and should, include the claim for damage to your door. if they got they're pictures why are they bothering you? small claims ct is always a good time

Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 01:50:24 PM »
Photog to Photog: What is their complaint? It sound as if they got what they contracted for. Ugly isn't your fault! It sounds as if you might have been a little late on delivery(?) But providing them with extra prints should more than make up for it.
Releasing all the files before payment would hurt you. Why would you do that? Copyright is our only (and very important) protection.
I did a catalogue a few years ago, and the client printed it, and distributed it at an international trade show before we were paid. I filed the images with the Library of Congress and informed the client that if we were to take them to court, standard awards are 3 times the market value for the images, plus court costs, and because the Catalogue had been distributed, they would have to retrieve every copy that was handed out, or pay penalties for each unretrieved copy. They paid. I was burned once in a copyright infringement situation. ONCE. It was a 30,000.00 learning lesson.
Don't back down. don't give them anything until they pay.

First I was smoothing things... Yes I released the "prints" before I was paid the balance. My guess is she is pissed because the Walgreen's chased her out for attempting to make copies.  ::)
I still own the files...... and intend to until I have cash to count.

I figure I am able to receive "double damages" But I may be wrong.

I have had to sidetrack the wife so she does not destroy their discs. ;D They got, 200 printed images all retouched, plus 100 images (free) for $750. I think I am getting ripped off when I do weddings.  :-\ Once they have the discs they have all copyright  reprint rights.

Lucky me they will go nowhere until I get money. I think there is a "Mickey Mouse" law in place for copyright issues. The Mickey mouse name was not as a dig, but rather that Mickey would become open domain under the then laws. Naturally Disney never let Mickey become open domain.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 01:57:10 PM by ElCheapo »
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Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 01:52:23 PM »
EC, sorry but you can't coutnerclaim for your lost time or attorney fees. you can, and should, include the claim for damage to your door. if they got they're pictures why are they bothering you? small claims ct is always a good time

I will look into all of this.... There is a reason that I have my attorneys on a high retainer.  ;D Just looking for public opinion and to vent. Really I promise I will go back to my corner when this is done.  ;D

I am sure no sober judge will even hear this thing more than he has to by law.  ;D

And for group ref: YES I was late on the delivery. This is why I gave them 100 extras. Figured it would make good. I make no excuses for it.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 02:08:05 PM by ElCheapo »
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Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 02:17:43 PM »
No don't go back to your corner!
I'm not sure if I'd ever give them their files. Traditionally, wedding and portrait photographers have viewed reprints as an integral part of their income. 200 images and 100 extra prints is a LOT for 750.00. Yeah, they probably were chased out of Walgreens. That's the Copyright law in action! It's illegal for anyone to scan or reprint from a photographers print. Don't give them anything until they settle up with you!
About 3 years ago, I had one client who needed prints of their work. I bought an Epson 2200 printer to make 81/2 x 11's...I'd tell it to make 30 prints, and every time the cutter went, all I could think was thirty bucks! thirty bucks! thirty bucks! thirty bucks!....make 'em pay for their prints too!
Smoothing things over never works either! The time I got stuck for 30 grand, I did over 5000 images for a website over a 4 month period. I shot them in a studio 60 miles away, and travelled there 3 times a week.
The guy didn't pay, and didn't pay. The site was up and functioning. after about 2 1/2 years, I raised the specter of copyright infringement. The guy jumped all over me. He was so sure he wasn't in the wrong (he said he'd pay me when the site brought in a certain gross, which it never did, and I never agreed to) that he said he'd sue me! I backed down, thinking it might work out.
Finally after about 3 years, I found an actual copyright lawyer. He almost cried. He said there's a 2 year Statute of limitations on awarding court costs. He said it was an open and shut case and he would have been glad to take it on contingency, but for the elapsed time!
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Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 02:24:23 PM »
No don't go back to your corner!
I'm not sure if I'd ever give them their files. Traditionally, wedding and portrait photographers have viewed reprints as an integral part of their income. 200 images and 100 extra prints is a LOT for 750.00. Yeah, they probably were chased out of Walgreens. That's the Copyright law in action! It's illegal for anyone to scan or reprint from a photographers print. Don't give them anything until they settle up with you!
About 3 years ago, I had one client who needed prints of their work. I bought an Epson 2200 printer to make 81/2 x 11's...I'd tell it to make 30 prints, and every time the cutter went, all I could think was thirty bucks! thirty bucks! thirty bucks! thirty bucks!....make 'em pay for their prints too!
Smoothing things over never works either! The time I got stuck for 30 grand, I did over 5000 images for a website over a 4 month period. I shot them in a studio 60 miles away, and travelled there 3 times a week.
The guy didn't pay, and didn't pay. The site was up and functioning. after about 2 1/2 years, I raised the specter of copyright infringement. The guy jumped all over me. He was so sure he wasn't in the wrong (he said he'd pay me when the site brought in a certain gross, which it never did, and I never agreed to) that he said he'd sue me! I backed down, thinking it might work out.
Finally after about 3 years, I found an actual copyright lawyer. He almost cried. He said there's a 2 year Statute of limitations on awarding court costs. He said it was an open and shut case and he would have been glad to take it on contingency, but for the elapsed time!
If you gave them what they contracted for, don't give an inch.


Thank you and I wont give them and inch....

Always nice to hear from another photographer.................

Going back to my corner for now as I can not play nice with others................I try to... really I do....Maybe another day...
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Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 02:27:21 PM »
One thing we use to protect ourselves...language in our quotes and contracts...We put this on everything.. you could change the language for your clientelle. We put "TERMS: Unlimited Non-Transferable usage granted upon payment in full" For us this means that after delivery, we don't care what the client does with the images, but they can't resell them or allow anyone else to use them. We never grant full rights and ownership to a client unless they agree to and pay an additional buy out fee. To arrive at that amount, we try to figure how much additional income might be derived from that image in the future. In your case, that could mean reprint fees.
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Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 02:35:00 PM »
One thing we use to protect ourselves...language in our quotes and contracts...We put this on everything.. you could change the language for your clientelle. We put "TERMS: Unlimited Non-Transferable usage granted upon payment in full" For us this means that after delivery, we don't care what the client does with the images, but they can't resell them or allow anyone else to use them. We never grant full rights and ownership to a client unless they agree to and pay an additional buy out fee. To arrive at that amount, we try to figure how much additional income might be derived from that image in the future. In your case, that could mean reprint fees.

Here's something that is wild, I have looked at your work before as inspriration. VERY NICE WORK MY FRIEND. Your web is very clean and your money well spent. YOU HAVE THE EYE FOR IT.

When we give copyright release to a customer (which I thought was a selling point - as my organizational skills SUCK) we give only reprint privately and NO commercial reprints or other use.... Ultimately we own the image and they are allowed to reprint from thier disc only for thier use. No commercial use allowed in anyway. And this is typed out pretty clear in our contract. Sure sounded slick when I came up with it, but it has come back to bite me. I will include this if I ever write a book on this stuff (which i may). I only hope it belay's a bunch of hurt for other photographers..... ::)

I would say now NEVER sell your files for any reason.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 02:38:25 PM by ElCheapo »
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Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 02:47:02 PM »
All you can do is spell things out clearly. What you have is essentially "Unlimited Non-Transferable usage". That will stand up in court, no matter what their interpretation of it is. It's not up to you to educate them.
Thanks for the compliment. Actually there are 3 of us in the studio (which makes the economy really tight when you split it 3 ways). 2 of us ride. Here's a new division we just started, aimed at high volume photography ( www.leapinlizardsphoto.com) . So when you have like 1000 widgets and do dads and no time to shoot them, pack 'em up and send 'em down here!
Oh, by the way I SUCK at what you do! I stopped doing weddings about 30 years ago...as I always said "Too many fat ladies"...They always want to look better than they do...Oh! wait a minute, that's what you're dealing with right now!
I'm Out...Good luck!
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 07:08:06 PM »
Here's what I do when a client doesn't send the check when they said they were going to...........http://www.world-playground.com/Americanplayground/

Ha!.... One guy actually said, "why don't you just take me to court like every one else"  The Internet is a very powerful motivator....look at the counter and date at the bottom!  ;D  I only have to do this once or twice a year on deadbeats, but it is very effective.

I usually get a courier at my door with a check within the week. :o

Good luck with it Cheapo


Offline tramp

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 03:51:48 AM »
i do not think you can take your lawer to small claims court
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Offline sparty

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 05:45:24 AM »
My wife is an attorney; she sees crap like this all of the time.  El Cheapo, I hope it works out for you, but via my wife's experience, it will end up costing you money in the end.  The best that you could hope for is getting payment from the "ugly" couple.  Counter suing will cost you more than you will receive.  Small claims court will talk you into settling out of court.

The court will be concerned with the contract.  If you specified a date for completion of the product and it wasn't fulfilled, no matter the circumstances, you may not be on the winning end.  As for the damage to your door, that would have to be taken up in a separate matter, again costing you money.

The small business man has very little legal protection unless you are a L.L.C., like I am.  My business has never been sued, but if I was, they can’t touch anything that I own, plus my company would end up paying the legal costs.  Noting out of pocket for me – Thank God.

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Offline Jeff

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 06:30:50 AM »
Oh, by the way I SUCK at what you do! I stopped doing weddings about 30 years ago...as I always said "Too many fat ladies"...They always want to look better than they do...Oh! wait a minute, that's what you're dealing with right now!
I'm Out...Good luck!

I'm a hobby photographer at best. Over the last year, I have shot really nothing but photos of my then pregnant wife, and now my nearly 5 month old daughter. I took some photography courses in college when I was getting my BFA. Someone asked if I would shoot a wedding. My response... "No way!"

I recently went to a Photoshop seminar. The instructor/speaker, who is a photographer/writer/Photoshop master called wedding photographers "Combat Photographers."

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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 07:11:36 AM »
What's a BFA Jeff?  Apart from the obvious (cf MBA = Master of Bugger All)
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 07:32:40 AM »
Bachelor of Fine Arts

or, if it's like your MBA, it could be Bachelor of ... well, you know. :)

Jeff

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 07:52:27 AM »
So Fine Arts is when they use thin brushes?
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 08:16:41 AM »
Hahaha, no, a Bachelor of Arts major would get their degree in something like English or History or something like that. A Bachelor of Fine Arts degree is in Art, Music, or Theater.

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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 08:24:46 AM »
My son is doing a BMus which is a performance degree (as opposed to an academic music degree)

He gets to live in London (Greenwich) and play his Tuba for 4 years at my expense!

Sorry for the thread hijack
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2006, 09:06:05 AM »
tuba`s are cool
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2006, 10:59:22 AM »
Tom, how nice were you with the woman even after his banging at the door? I had my little son christening last august. Believe it or not, I was unable to find a photographer until the day before, using the yellow pages. One told me: "Listen, you call me with little to no time window. I don't have my equipment ready, and if I tell you I can do it and then I can't, you are gonna go ballistic because your son christening is just once in a lifetime. Give me half an hour to see if I can buy professional film and my cameras and batteries are ready and I will let you know whether or not I can do it, but don't stop looking for another photographer".


Five minutes later I called another one -a woman- who was very surprised at me calling. She told me she usually don't do weddings or christenings but she would be more than happy to help me so I can have pictures of the christening. She told me she would come to my house and show me some of her work.

The other man called me telling he was ready but I told him I had arranged with the woman. We agreed to wait wether or not I would give the job to the woman and talk later.

One hour after the time she told me she would be knocking at my door I called her and she told me she was just leaving. She asked me if I mind if she come with his 10 year old son because she had nobody to leave him with. Of course I said no problem.

She phoned me when she was at my street but couldn't find my appartment block. I came down and met her. She only talked and talked and talked. Looked like a lovely woman and very sensitive with children. Even told me she was divorced and his in-law was in hospital so she had to go after our inteview.

So I thought "What if his inlaw dies or gets worse?" What if she had nobody to leave the son with? What if she doesn't have the equipment ready? What if she can't find the church tomorrow?" So I phoned her later and told her I was sorry. She started to cry saying she knew it was because of the price and that she just wanted to help me. I felt very bad, but I was not sure she can do it. Phoned the other man, he came one hour after the christening to meet us, went to the church to see the place, took the pictures, and charged a lot of money that I willingly paid.

A couple of days later I called the girl and explained the reason. She told me she would have had not problem with the pictures, but she understood me. I liked her so I will have her took some shoots of our little couple in a next future, when they are posing and if the pictures go wrong the only thing you have to do is to repeat them.


What I mean Tom is that family celebrations are very important to people, and they can get very nervous if they feel somebody is not taking seriously their most important day in their life. It takes a little psychology to deal with this things, and I'm sure that if she sees the pictures and the result is good, nothing would have happened after that.


What amazes me is how important my wedding picture were and it has been at least 10 years without taking the album out of the closet....


In any case, a trial is always a bad thing because nothing guarantees that the one who is right will turn out as the winner. The only winners are the lawyers, because they make money regardless of how their clients come out. And I'm not talking bad about them -something very easy- because we need them regardless of what we think of it. In Spain, courts are full of trials in which only a miserable amount is at stake. In manyh cases, people is willing to forget about money, but won't forget about hurt feelings. Sometimes an apology and an explanation is all it takes to avoid a trial.



Just my two cents.


Raul

Offline ElCheapo

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2006, 11:56:06 AM »
Raul I am reading your replay as I type this. Your input is always welcome...Turn down music and listen to something mellow during this. ;D

Tom, how nice were you with the woman even after his banging at the door?  

I had no contact with her after this point. Instead we had contact with her husband who repeatedly apologized for his wife. Was never nasty to them. He is a decent guy really. Funny the papers only had her name on them (not received them yet - and called several times to the local law to get them). This was my wife's perception. I have remained cool. The door does not even close right any more and will take serious work to correct  :o ::).


I had my little son christening last august. Believe it or not, I was unable to find a photographer until the day before, using the yellow pages. One told me: "Listen, you call me with little to no time window. I don't have my equipment ready, and if I tell you I can do it and then I can't, you are gonna go ballistic because your son christening is just once in a lifetime.

Equipment ready? It only takes about 1/2 to charge the camera and 1/2 to "get in character" for the shoot. There was no excuse for this. Naturally I call this the "I can do better" clause. It is easy to say "I can do better" without knowing the facts. But the fact is I do normally perform better, as I built Concept Photography "the idea begins with you" on one word. YES. I am about the most flexible photographer you could possible want. You ask and I say "Yes"... You get the idea.

One hour after the time she told me she would be knocking at my door I called her and she told me she was just leaving. She asked me if I mind if she come with his 10 year old son because she had nobody to leave him with. Of course I said no problem.

She phoned me when she was at my street but couldn't find my apartment block. I came down and met her. She only talked and talked and talked. Looked like a lovely woman and very sensitive with children. Even told me she was divorced and his in-law was in hospital so she had to go after our interview.


First I use a Garmin GPS so this "lost and can not find" never happens. I work real time with my customers so they know exactly where I am. My cell is on me at all times. Also I never share "personal" information or prior client information with any client. I believe this is unprofessional.

What I mean Tom is that family celebrations are very important to people, and they can get very nervous if they feel somebody is not taking seriously their most important day in their life. It takes a little psychology to deal with this things, and I'm sure that if she sees the pictures and the result is good, nothing would have happened after that.

I can say but this one thing for this (and it is long - you did not expect less did you?  ;D ).... All gear is checked the night before. Before a wedding at 11:00am I am up at 6:00 am. Double and triple checking gear, testing setttings, and making sure things are right and all the lighting and bits will go off without a hitch. I do not believe in making excuses for any equipment short comings EVER. I know it will work without problems or I do not use it at all for any reason. I am more nervous than the bride the morning of. I push everything hard. When I say 10:00 am I am there at least 45 minutes ahead making sure I am able to do all of it like I said. A wedding gets 200% of what I have to offer if that is possible. I am all over my people when they come back to me, things are happening and no one is taking pics. Nothing, but nothing pisses me off more. When we do a shoot there are always 2 photographers and 2 assistants. Everyone runs full blast and nothing less is accepted. No excuses, just performance.


What amazes me is how important my wedding picture were and it has been at least 10 years without taking the album out of the closet....

This is why I archive all of my photos digitally off site (2 copies in two places). If a fire happens for my client? Where will the photos be? That's right, safe because, while the photos are irreplaceable the photo album itself is easily replaced. At a time of fire, there are a great many other things to worry about rather than where are the photos. ::)


As always thanks for your input, and with the length of your post I figured I should take time to think through carefully what I post here. Right now we are not bothering to get excited. I should have the "papers" soon and will be meeting with my lawyer on Monday. So no sense in wrecking our Thanksgiving Holiday with this. Afterall nothing can be fixed right now.

Just looking forward to my day in court.

Cheers
Tom




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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Anyone here been sued? - HEHE I am
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2006, 12:25:45 PM »
tom,that has to be one of the most level headed posts you have ever made,and i applaud you for it.happy thanksgiving
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3