Topic: Steering head bearings

[eigenvector]

Have to adjust the steering head bearings on the bike.  When I was bombing around the neighborhood I noticed that it thunked and clunked when turning or hitting bumps.  Stuck my thumb under the upper bearing collar and noticed movement when the brakes were applied.  I jacked it up and the forks are solid, no lateral or fore/aft movement in the wheel.  The handlebars rotate very freely with no indication of catch points or dragging.  It was my understanding that it should drag a little.

So I'm assuming the stem isn't snugged down enough.

This morning I stuck a 30mm socket on it, attempted to budge it, but wasn't able to.  Looked at the service guide and they mentioned that it should be torqued from 62 to 90 ft-lbs.  Aside from that being a huge margin, that's pretty tight to say the least.  Tighter than I would have ever expected - heck the bearings on my truck aren't that tight.

Ultimately my question is thus - should I loosen it up, then snug it down again in case it just wasn't torqued enough, or should I just remove the stem and repack the bearings?  I don't see any indication of worn bearings, which is why I'm not leaning that way - but I've never rebuilt a steering stem so I don't know.

[CycleRanger]

Ultimately my question is thus - or should I just remove the stem and repack the bearings?  I don't see any indication of worn bearings, which is why I'm not leaning that way - but I've never rebuilt a steering stem so I don't know.

Yes! Be prepared to catch all the bearings when they fall out...
If you've never been in there before you should at the very least clean & repack the bearings.
Better still, while you're there just install tapered bearings.

[Bankerdanny]

Which bike?

This article is very helpful: http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/shucking.html

[eigenvector]

Well I have to remove the front end anyway to rebuild the instrument cluster - so why not (other than it being a pain)?

Not something I'll do today, looking like rain so for now I'll just begin the process of stripping off the front end so that I can work on the instrument cluster in the shop.

This is my Nighthawk in case you're wondering.

I wanted to spend the day organizing the shop and putting my tools away - not tearing bike apart after getting it running again.

[CycleRanger]

Well I have to remove the front end anyway to rebuild the instrument cluster - so why not (other than it being a pain)?

Not something I'll do today, looking like rain so for now I'll just begin the process of stripping off the front end so that I can work on the instrument cluster in the shop.

This is my Nighthawk in case you're wondering.

I wanted to spend the day organizing the shop and putting my tools away - not tearing bike apart after getting it running again.

The Nighthawk probably has tapered bearings so you can probably just get away with cleaning and repacking them.

[eigenvector]

Nope!    Assuming the shop manual photo is correct.  Looks like ball bearings.

Gonna be apart for a few days so I can get tapered bearings if need be.

[CycleRanger]

Nope!    Assuming the shop manual photo is correct.  Looks like ball bearings.

Gonna be apart for a few days so I can get tapered bearings if need be.

Huh, I didn't bother to look but I assumed Honda would have switched by then.
Ah well,

[seanbarney41]

eventually they did at least cage them...my 86 vf500f Interceptor has caged ball bearings...apparently not rally an improvement as they need work, just like the loose balls, after only 18,000 miles

[brewsky]

So I'm assuming the stem isn't snugged down enough.

This morning I stuck a 30mm socket on it, attempted to budge it, but wasn't able to.  Looked at the service guide and they mentioned that it should be torqued from 62 to 90 ft-lbs.

The nut that adjusts the bearing tightness is UNDER the top tree, not the one on top.
You have to remove the top tree (or at least loosen the top fork pinch bolts, top bolt, and top tree clamp pinch bolt (if there is one) to adjust the bearing tightness. It's done with a notched nut that requires a spanner or special socket.

[scottly]

So I'm assuming the stem isn't snugged down enough.

This morning I stuck a 30mm socket on it, attempted to budge it, but wasn't able to.  Looked at the service guide and they mentioned that it should be torqued from 62 to 90 ft-lbs.

The nut that adjusts the bearing tightness is UNDER the top tree, not the one on top.
You have to remove the top tree (or at least loosen the top fork pinch bolts, top bolt, and top tree clamp pinch bolt (if there is one) to adjust the bearing tightness. It's done with a notched nut that requires a spanner or special socket.

Brewsky is correct. Also, over-tightening the nut can damage even new bearings, by "dimpling" the races, especially with ball rolling elements. In no case should the adjustment nut be tightened to 90 ft-lbs!

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Your stock shock adjuster wrench is also called a steering stem nut adjuster wrench.

[Bankerdanny]

It is also called a pin spanner

[CycleRanger]

It is also called a pin spanner

Or a pin wrench.
One time I tried asking at Home Depot about one of these because they're also used for some plumbing applications.
Three different employees got huffy with me because they didn't know what it was and therefore it couldn't be a real tool. 

[eigenvector]

Well, that's why I asked.

Shows you how much I know about steering head bearings.  I understand now why it's 65 to 90 ft-lbs - it's the triple-clamp nut.  The steering head nut is something else entirely.

In either case it sounds like a learning opportunity in the making.  I'll start dismantling while the sun is out.

[CycleRanger]

Hope they don't look like this! 
My XS650.

[eigenvector]

I hope not, but so far they're dry as a bone.

Got the upper removed, pretty simple really.  I was expecting it to be a knucklebusting challenge, but honestly once you loosened the pinch bolts, then broke the triple clamp nut loose - it all came apart no problem.

When I say dry as a bone I mean it, I don't see any evidence of grease so far.  Nothing under the top cap, not even those hard crusties that dry grease leaves.

[eigenvector]

Well that was easy.

Removed the uppers plus the race, both looked fine.  Jacked the bike up and dropped the stem out enough to clean the lowers.  The bearings were caged so nothing escaped.  I do believe they had the original grease on them - it looked very similar to the grease you would get from a Harbor Freight bearing, that vasoline stuff.  Barely any of it - unless you count road grime.

Cleaned them up with brake cleaner, wiped them down, packed them with a good marine grade grease and partially reassembled.

Won't be able to fully reassemble until I can get a proper tool to torque the upper nut.

[754]

Put an aluminum bar or drift against  it and tap it  gently.

[NobleHops]

Attaboy. Go read that link that was offered and follow that procedure for tensioning the bearing and you'll likely get it perfect on your first try. You'll need a spring scale, like you'd use to weigh a delicious bass.

N.

[scottly]

I do not agree with Mr. Nixon's recommendation for over-tightening the bearing preload to seat the bearing races in the neck; that's like driving the outer race of a wheel bearing into the hub on the inner race, through the rolling elements. That's not how it's done.

[NobleHops]

I do not agree with Mr. Nixon's recommendation for over-tightening the bearing preload to seat the bearing races in the neck; that's like driving the outer race of a wheel bearing into the hub on the inner race, through the rolling elements. That's not how it's done.

Would you feel a bit better about it if you knew the procedure he describes was lifted primarily out of one of the Honda CBX FSMs?

[scottly]

No, Nils, it wouldn't. The handling fault with the early CBX was the flimsy plastic swing-arm bushings, not the steering stem bearing pre-load. One simply does not seat bearing races by applying pressure through the rolling elements.

[scottly]

Note rule #8.

[NobleHops]

Note rule #8.

Ya, I hear ya man, understand the concern. But as prior, that process Nixon refers to is Honda gospel too, and as I have done it several times, I absolutely can feel the bearing squaring up in the pockets as I rotate the steering head to and fro, and the action of the steering head gets much looser as it does. We're not talking about excessive torque IMO and it's not on the rollers for long either.

On the other hand, if a bearing gets installed without some mechanism like this to get it seated, loosens as it seats (which it clearly does in my personal experience), then the rollers are getting hammered as the bike goes down the road because it has play. Plus you have to remove the top bridge to fix it, when it comes back because the bearing is too loose :-).

So pick your poison I guess. I like the Nixon/Honda method.

[seanbarney41]

Note rule #8.

Ya, I hear ya man, understand the concern. But as prior, that process Nixon refers to is Honda gospel too, and as I have done it several times, I absolutely can feel the bearing squaring up in the pockets as I rotate the steering head to and fro, and the action of the steering head gets much looser as it does. We're not talking about excessive torque IMO and it's not on the rollers for long either.

On the other hand, if a bearing gets installed without some mechanism like this to get it seated, loosens as it seats (which it clearly does in my personal experience), then the rollers are getting hammered as the bike goes down the road because it has play. Plus you have to remove the top bridge to fix it, when it comes back because the bearing is too loose :-).

So pick your poison I guess. I like the Nixon/Honda method.

+1, 50 ft. lbs spread evenly over two tapered rollers is probably way less damaging than the pounding they get when they get loose.  I have never tried this before but I know I have had to re-tighten everytime after 1000 miles or so.

[754]

Loading up a tapered roller has got to be way less damaging than doing it to caged balls.

[scottly]

The gospel according to Honda says to tighten the nut to 22-29 ft/lbs to seat the races, while the gospel according to Nixon says 40-50 ft/lbs. (Honda also warns about over-tightening the bearings, and states that this procedure is for tapered roller bearings and not ball bearings.)
The gospel according to Honda is to set the pre-load torque to .7-1.4 ft/lbs, and that the forks should move freely, while Nixon recommends 7-10 ft/lbs, adjusted to require 5-7 pounds of force on a fork tube to move.

[eigenvector]

I'm more inclined to trust what Honda is recommending.

The amounts are inline with what you'd torque a wheel bearing to, seat to about 25 ft-lbs, then back off.

50 ft-lbs is a LOT of torque - especially for a chrome ball bearing which is likely to fracture under too much force.  Nice thing about a roller bearing, there are more of them to spread out the load better

[scottly]

It is amazing how much pressure a 1mm pitch thread can produce when torqued to 50 ft/lbs.

[754]

Some of us can tell if a race is seated all around when we used the driver to install.
I check it 4 ways, and a light tap will tell if it's "home" or not.
 I bet Scottly knows what I mean..

[NobleHops]

Note rule #8.

Ya, I hear ya man, understand the concern. But as prior, that process Nixon refers to is Honda gospel too...

I need to correct myself on something: What I said here was wrong. I went back and re-read the '80 CBX supplement and while it DOES suggest three rounds of tightening the bearing adjustment nut and going lock to lock to seat the bearings it does NOT reference the higher initial torque and the use of the spring scale to set the final torque. That spring scale procedure may have been referenced from a different Honda, possibly a Gold Wing, but I am pretty sure it was a Honda manual. The process has worked perfectly for me several times as Nixon outlines it, however.

Scottly was correct though, Honda never advised using that much torque.
 

[eigenvector]

I read the service guide a bit more closely and here is what they recommend for my Nighthawk

paraphrase (I don't have it in front of me)
Torque to 15 ft-lbs
rotate from full left to full right 5 times to seat the bearing
torque to 15 ft-lbs
rotate full left to right one more time to seat the bearing
Install lock washer

Check proper bearing preload by using spring scale - approximately 2 to 3 lbs

[scottly]

There is more BS in Oldfart's tutorial than usable information. Hopefully no one has ruined their ball bearings by following his advice. And what is with the copyright superimposed over the Honda copyrighted document??
The bit about handling issues below/above 450 MPH is another example.
The real rule is that if the problem is felt in the front, it's actually in the rear, and vice-versa.
Something to keep in mind when adjusting the bearings is the weight of the front wheel if installed. If the bearings are adjusted with just the lower triple installed, there is no noticeable weight, but hanging a 50 pound front wheel assembly attached to a 2 foot lever will shove the bottom part of the stem backwards and the top of the stem forwards, throwing off the torque readings. If adjustment is made with the wheel attached, the wheel should be pushed up so there is weight on it, pushing the lower bearing up into it's race.