Author Topic: Transistorized ignition, points style. First ones are ready!  (Read 81870 times)

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Offline Patrick

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #125 on: January 06, 2007, 03:03:57 PM »
Hey Hondaman, while I anxiously await the end of field testing and distribution, I have a question. In earlier items you mentioned you are planning to test this setup with 3.0-ohm. Dyna coils. Will this unit support even hotter coils, like maybe the Dyna 2.2 or even 1.5-ohm coils?

Thanks,

Patrick

1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2007, 04:09:05 PM »
G'Day Mark, I've got a pair of new Dyna 3 Ohm green coils with 7mm solid copper cored wire, and NGK plug caps, but I dunno if they're "resistor" or "non-resistor" caps? Sorry mate, but by now you've probably guessed that to me, auto electronics is "white mans magic", ha ha! Cheers, Terry. ;D

Terry;
Can you have your electrican friend measure the ohms in your plug caps for this project? The measurement should be taken between the hole where the plug snaps in and the little screw (or clip) where it attaches to the wire. A "resistor" cap will measure somewhere between 9000 and 11000 ohms, if it is good. Above that, it's burned out and should be replaced. If the resistance is very low, like 0 ohms, it is a non-resistor plug.

If it is non-resistor, then you should be running resistor plugs, for best performance. There needs to be at least 1 resistor element in the spark system somewhere: either wires, plug cap or spark plug.

If there is no resistance in this high-voltage circuit, the spark will be about 1/2 as strong as normal. With the new transistor amplifier, a lack of resistance will make the coils run hotter, which may (likely) affect hi-RPM operation by weakening the spark "up there".
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2007, 04:22:32 PM »
No worries Mark, I'm just going to the bike shop to buy some new Bridgestone BT45 tyres for my K1 "Power-Kruiser" now, so I'll see if I can buy some new resistor-caps while I'm there. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2007, 04:47:49 PM »
Let me confess that I know little about electronics. On my 1976 500 Four I run the green 3 Ohm Dynacoils. They take a bit more power compared to the original coils that rate about 4,5 Ohms. The combination 3 Ohm coils with the original ignition setup will cause your points to pit more. Any transistorized ignition overcomes that problem.
As fas as I know (not much) resistors - wheather they are in caps, plugs or wires, are ONLY there to prevent interference on radio's. By the way, that's enough reason to have them. I have never, never understood what good they can do for the spark. They make it more difficult for the spark to fly. If that's what you want, why not widen the sparkplug gap a bit?

The resistance has more to do with current control in a plasma field than with radio interference suppression. The RF suppression is a by-product of the current control.

In a hi-voltage pulse circuit, the voltage that gets delivered at the gap is a function of the buildup across the gap prior to the jump. If lots of current is availalbe, the magnetic field lines that start the plasma field across that gap allow the current to "escape" easier across the gap while the coil's field is collapsing. If the magnetic lines are limited for a few microseconds by resistance to the current that creates them, then the coil has time to more fully collapse before the gap is jumped. This results in a higher voltage and a hotter spark.

Opening the gap will also limit the current, but unless the coil has a higher voltage potential (known in Engineering as "circuit Q", or "resonance") to compensate for this new gap, the timing of the jump will not be consistent over the whole RPM range. What usually happens is: the timing begins to advance slightly as the RPM rises past the point where a plasma tends to self-propagate inside the cylinder. This would be OK in a typical automotive application where there is no "waste spark" cycle and only 1 plug is fired at a time. But, in these Fours, the 2-plug firing system's waste spark plug then causes the spark timing to lag, compared to the active cylinder's plasma-assisted firing (at high RPM, like 6500+). This lag then "spreads" the coil's collapse over a wider time, which drops the voltage peak and advances the timing a little. This "wandering timing" effect can be watched, if you have a setback timing light and can switch back and forth between a "resistored" system and a non-"resistored" system, so you can check it out yourself: that's how I came to first believe it back in the 1960s.

Does that help?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2007, 04:55:49 PM »
Hey Hondaman, while I anxiously await the end of field testing and distribution, I have a question. In earlier items you mentioned you are planning to test this setup with 3.0-ohm. Dyna coils. Will this unit support even hotter coils, like maybe the Dyna 2.2 or even 1.5-ohm coils?

Thanks,

Patrick



Hi, Patrick;

The design parameters on this amp are for a 2-to-6 amp load. The output transistor can withstand 10 amps, so if the driving circuit is "tweaked" a bit, it can drive higher loads, too. Most of these Hondas don't have the current generation capability to run the extra-hot coils unless something else is sacrificed, like lesser lighting loads (or racing applications without lighting). I could probably modify one for you, but I'd need one of the coils so I can check it's inductance and figure out what "tweaking" needed to be done. The circuit configuration won't change significantly, but the values (and possibly the drive transistor and EMF protection diode) would. The case would remain the same, but it will likely run hotter and require mounting where airflow across it can be accomplished.

I did this on my original one, long ago, and ended up mounting it under the taillight bracket for cooling purposes. It worked fine for a long time until it disappeared.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2007, 05:01:40 PM »
Stop it Mark, my brain hurts! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 750goes

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2007, 05:14:11 PM »
i'm with you Terry, it hurts a lot when they start posting anything past positive and negative for me   ;D

Offline Patrick

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2007, 05:17:02 PM »
You don't have to tweak one special just for me, HM. I'm just investigating options. I'm going to upgrade my stock coils and I'm planning to convert my K5 750 to LED lighting so save voltage anyway, so I wondered if investing in really hot coils would be within the range of possibilities. Considering the way I ride these days, nuclear fusion type spark would likely be wasted anyway.....

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2007, 05:20:47 PM »
Hey Mark, there was a guy on Ebay selling electronic ignitions with points, with an inbuilt timing light, can you incorporate that into your design too? Maybe for the MK2 version? Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2007, 07:29:28 PM »
Hey Mark, there was a guy on Ebay selling electronic ignitions with points, with an inbuilt timing light, can you incorporate that into your design too? Maybe for the MK2 version? Cheers, Terry. ;D

That's a cool idea: add one of these new ultra-bright LEDs to flash with the spark all the time! Then, mount it in the timing cover, under the points plate...very do-able, actually. Maybe I'll play with the idea, while I'm waiting for the other parts to arrive. Sure would be convenient!  8)

It would only add about $5-$7 to the cost, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 750goes

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2007, 09:44:54 PM »
how about two different coloured lights that will show up 1&4 in blue & 2&3 in yellow. (they are my favourite football team colours).. and you locate them under the points plate just near the advancer to show up the timing marks....

how about you cut the centre out of the points cover and glue in a round clear piece of perspex (sealed of course) then you could see the lights during the night and also tell if both sets of points are working...

how about I shut up..........thanks guys for listening........... ;D

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #136 on: January 09, 2007, 06:09:23 AM »
sounds like a plan to me
mark
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Offline medic09

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #137 on: January 09, 2007, 01:04:40 PM »
i'm with you Terry, it hurts a lot when they start posting anything past positive and negative for me   ;D

Electricity?!  All the talk about plasma, I thought this was Star Trek!   ;D  (and that's only because I was pretty sure it wasn't blood plasma they're talking about...)
Mordechai

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'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #138 on: January 09, 2007, 03:11:05 PM »


(and that's only because I was pretty sure it wasn't blood plasma they're talking about...)

Ahhhh, you can take the boy out of the RAP, but you can't take the RAP out of the boy, it seems............... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2007, 03:24:35 PM »
The K2543 transistor ignition is a Velleman kit. It is well known here in Holland and Belgium, comes with chrystalclear instructions and costs € 14,75. After I tested one on my 1978 504 Peugeot, I assembled a set for my CB 500 Four (You need two, ofcourse). Having the scheme now, I bought the electronic components (they're real cheap) and mounted them as smart as possible on some experimentboard. With improvisation I've managed to house it in a little aluminium box and located that behind the rubber strap that holds the battery in place. It's been on my bike for 8 years now and it has not failed me once. With this set you disconnect the condensors and use the points as trigger. Points will not pit anymore. I have not changed them in 40.000 km. That supplied heatsink is exagerated. To have the Darlingtontransistors cooled I simply mounted them with their backside against  box and  lid. Works fine. A scheme you will find on http://suzuki88.webcindario.com/fotos/fm17-1g.jpg  For a test ride I located the box behind the right side cover, to be precise: behind the rubber strap that holds the battery in place. That's halfway the coils and the breakerpoints. The tension of the strap pulls the box firmly against the battery. The battery itself is relatively vibrationfree due to some rubber parts in the bottom of the batteryholder. It proofed to be a perfect location. After testing it, I have never bothered to mount it somewhere else. After riding through half of Europe (sometimes over very bumpy roads), I can assure you that that strip never comes loose. My box has never moved a millimeter.


 


Deltarider, I got a question about the schematic. I guess the points connect to the input at the left and the coil to the output at the right. But, the points have a fixed connection to earth, and the coils a fixed connection to positive. So, the darlington should put together the coil connection to ground and therefore point 4 should be grounded. But it would mean point 2 should be grounded too. Am I right?


Raul

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2007, 08:03:28 PM »
The K2543 transistor ignition is a Velleman kit. It is well known here in Holland and Belgium, comes with chrystalclear instructions and costs € 14,75. After I tested one on my 1978 504 Peugeot, I assembled a set for my CB 500 Four (You need two, ofcourse). Having the scheme now, I bought the electronic components (they're real cheap) and mounted them as smart as possible on some experimentboard. With improvisation I've managed to house it in a little aluminium box and located that behind the rubber strap that holds the battery in place. It's been on my bike for 8 years now and it has not failed me once. With this set you disconnect the condensors and use the points as trigger. Points will not pit anymore. I have not changed them in 40.000 km. That supplied heatsink is exagerated. To have the Darlingtontransistors cooled I simply mounted them with their backside against  box and  lid. Works fine. A scheme you will find on http://suzuki88.webcindario.com/fotos/fm17-1g.jpg  For a test ride I located the box behind the right side cover, to be precise: behind the rubber strap that holds the battery in place. That's halfway the coils and the breakerpoints. The tension of the strap pulls the box firmly against the battery. The battery itself is relatively vibrationfree due to some rubber parts in the bottom of the batteryholder. It proofed to be a perfect location. After testing it, I have never bothered to mount it somewhere else. After riding through half of Europe (sometimes over very bumpy roads), I can assure you that that strip never comes loose. My box has never moved a millimeter.


 


Deltarider, I got a question about the schematic. I guess the points connect to the input at the left and the coil to the output at the right. But, the points have a fixed connection to earth, and the coils a fixed connection to positive. So, the darlington should put together the coil connection to ground and therefore point 4 should be grounded. But it would mean point 2 should be grounded too. Am I right?


Raul

Don't mean to hijack, Raul...1 goes to +12v ignition, 2 goes to the points, 3 to the (-) side of the coil and 4 to ground. I built the circuit to test its performance against mine. It does a good job of supplying current to the points without loading them. The zener diodes can be eliminated if the driver transistor is changed to a type ZTX457 and a 3 amp, 400v diode is added across the darlington (anode to ground), a less expensive arrangement overall.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2007, 12:03:12 AM »
Thanks Hondaman. BTW, the jpg file is not very detailed and I have a doubt about the zeners. Are they 150 V?

In another forum I read about another circuit; I've asked the guy who posted for the schematic, and I will post it if I get it. In any case, I guess it will just be a variation of the basic concept.


Raul

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2007, 06:11:16 PM »
That Velleman kit is available in North America too  http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K2543 for $23.00
Guess we would need 2

David

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2007, 07:16:31 PM »
Thanks Hondaman. BTW, the jpg file is not very detailed and I have a doubt about the zeners. Are they 150 V?

In another forum I read about another circuit; I've asked the guy who posted for the schematic, and I will post it if I get it. In any case, I guess it will just be a variation of the basic concept.


Raul

I have two very similar schematics of this "concept". One shows two 150v zener diodes in series (this one) and the other shows a 300v zener (unobtanium today) in the same configuration. I noticed that the 150v zeners are still widely available in Allied Electronics and Digi-Key catalogs, so they are probably the hot ticket. If you can't get at least a 3 watt version of the zeners, add a 27 ohm, 1 watt resistor in series with them ( at the anode of the lowest voltage point) to keep them from eroding their junctions due to heat surges. The 1 watt versions have too small of a P-N junction surface to last a long time under the kickback conditions this circuit endures.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2007, 07:21:15 PM »
That Velleman kit is available in North America too  http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K2543 for $23.00
Guess we would need 2

David

That's right. Sierck simply used the schematic and bought the parts, then hand-built his "double" unit into a different box. The transistors only need about 4 watts of heatsink, so a metal enclosure was adequate. The ones I am using are waterproof, die cast aluminum with silicone seals and o-rings around the screws. That should keep the hi-pressure carwash out of the insides of it.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jevfro

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #145 on: January 12, 2007, 01:14:06 AM »
I'm following this thread w/ much interest...  I love the idea of led timing lights you could see on the points cover!  I do a little circut building but I think I might just buy one from you hondaman.  How long is the waiting list and how much would a "all the bells and whistles(and led lights)" version cost?  maybe a kit version for us electronic hobbyists?


Offline Deltarider

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2007, 12:02:31 PM »
Quote
Deltarider, I got a question about the schematic. I guess the points connect to the input at the left and the coil to the output at the right. But, the points have a fixed connection to earth, and the coils a fixed connection to positive. So, the darlington should put together the coil connection to ground and therefore point 4 should be grounded. But it would mean point 2 should be grounded too. Am I right?

Raúl,

1. goes to positive, 2. goes to contactbreaker (disconnect condenser) 3. goes to coil negative, 4. goes to ground. With ignitionsetup like ours you need two sets, one for 1+4 and another one for 2+3. I put the two in one box, so there are 6 wires: Positive, Ground, Contactbreaker 2+3, Coil neg. 2+3, Contactbreaker 1+4, Coil neg. 1+4. But I would advise you to wait and see what Patrick comes up with.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2007, 12:11:53 PM »
Excuse me,

I mean Mark.
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Offline Patrick

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2007, 01:04:06 PM »
I personally, wouldn't use any electronic component I came up with. There would likely be a serious risk of major explosion. I'll stick to my wrenches.

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Transistorized ignition, points style. (Updated) Interested?
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2007, 03:33:31 PM »
I'm following this thread w/ much interest...  I love the idea of led timing lights you could see on the points cover!  I do a little circut building but I think I might just buy one from you hondaman.  How long is the waiting list and how much would a "all the bells and whistles(and led lights)" version cost?  maybe a kit version for us electronic hobbyists?



I think there's only about 10 guys wanting a unit right now. After it's not vaporware, some more guys might be interested,I imagine. I bought enough parts this first round to build 10 units (without the LED timing lights gizmo). In the next batch I can make an optional place to add the LEDs, if it works well. I need to be able to run a bike to actully see how these will display: right now, I just finished digging a path to my 750 and removed most of the snow from its cover. It's gonna be a while before I can run my baby, I think. It's snowing again and 0 degrees...pretty soon, the temperature will look like my checkbook balance.   :-\
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com