Topic: Transistorized ignition, points style. First ones are ready!

[jevfro]

It's snowing again and 0 degrees...pretty soon, the temperature will look like my checkbook balance.

Thanks for the reply/update!
I know what you mean far to much!

http://www.wunderground.com/US/WA/Ellensburg.html

says it's  9 °F  / -13 °C  here now...

Kinda like my bank account (the °C not the °F even!)

I'm definitely am interested in a unit if it is as well built as you make it sound!(and my bank account bounces back like it should )
From the huge amount of info I've gleaned from your many posts I feel I owe it to you and the rest of the forum to support these independent undertakings...


I'm torn on spending the $120 for a Dyna-S from Z1 or wait for the Hondaman hybrid of old school meets modern IC technology!

I need a second bike so I can do both I guess

[Terry in Australia]

I'm following this thread w/ much interest...  I love the idea of led timing lights you could see on the points cover!  I do a little circut building but I think I might just buy one from you hondaman.  How long is the waiting list and how much would a "all the bells and whistles(and led lights)" version cost?  maybe a kit version for us electronic hobbyists?

I think there's only about 10 guys wanting a unit right now. After it's not vaporware, some more guys might be interested,I imagine. I bought enough parts this first round to build 10 units (without the LED timing lights gizmo). In the next batch I can make an optional place to add the LEDs, if it works well. I need to be able to run a bike to actully see how these will display: right now, I just finished digging a path to my 750 and removed most of the snow from its cover. It's gonna be a while before I can run my baby, I think. It's snowing again and 0 degrees...pretty soon, the temperature will look like my checkbook balance.   

Well Mark, it's gonna be 100 deg F tomorrow here in Melbourne, so that's way more than my current checkbook balance, ha ha! My K1 "Power-Kruiser" is up and running with the Dyna S/Dyna 3 Ohm coils, and it'll be registered and on the road on Friday, so your "Test bed" awaits your beaut new ignition, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[Dennis]

Terry;
Can you have your electrican friend measure the ohms in your plug caps for this project? ..................... A "resistor" cap will measure somewhere between 9000 and 11000 ohms, if it is good. Above that, it's burned out and should be replaced. If the resistance is very low, like 0 ohms, it is a non-resistor plug.

Mark, the old Honda caps run about the 10,000 +/- that you reference.

Most of the NGK's are 5K.

Just FYI.

PS: I'm still looking forward to getting a few of these, since I've been too lazy to build them myself (as I said earlier).

[HondaMan]

Terry;
Can you have your electrican friend measure the ohms in your plug caps for this project? ..................... A "resistor" cap will measure somewhere between 9000 and 11000 ohms, if it is good. Above that, it's burned out and should be replaced. If the resistance is very low, like 0 ohms, it is a non-resistor plug.

Mark, the old Honda caps run about the 10,000 +/- that you reference.

Most of the NGK's are 5K.

Just FYI.

PS: I'm still looking forward to getting a few of these, since I've been too lazy to build then myself (as I said earlier).

Thanks for the info, Dennis!

[HondaMan]

Well Mark, it's gonna be 100 deg F tomorrow here in Melbourne, so that's way more than my current checkbook balance, ha ha! My K1 "Power-Kruiser" is up and running with the Dyna S/Dyna 3 Ohm coils, and it'll be registered and on the road on Friday, so your "Test bed" awaits your beaut new ignition, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

Perfect! It needs hot-weather testing far more than cold-weather testing. The cold masks any possible heat buildup problems.

[Terry in Australia]

If there is no resistance in this high-voltage circuit, the spark will be about 1/2 as strong as normal. With the new transistor amplifier, a lack of resistance will make the coils run hotter, which may (likely) affect hi-RPM operation by weakening the spark "up there".

G'Day Mark, well this might explain a problem I am having at the moment, the rebuilt engine in my K1 starts great, idles well and up to around 4500 RPM, is as smooth as silk, but under load from 4500 RPM upwards it will miss and fart really badly, almost like it's running out of gas?

I checked the plugs and they're pretty sooty, (120 Main jets and #40 pilots with standard airbox) and the spark from the dyna S and dyna 3 ohm coils seems weak, even with a new battery. Could it be the caps? I haven't bought new ones yet, so the ones on mine are probably many years old? What do you reckon mate?

My ignition timing is spot on according to my strobe light,, my carbs are fine, there's tons of compression, so unless I've badly muffed the valve timing (Megacycle 125/75 cam and adjustable sprocket) I don't know what else could be wrong with it? Cheers, Terry.

[HondaMan]

If there is no resistance in this high-voltage circuit, the spark will be about 1/2 as strong as normal. With the new transistor amplifier, a lack of resistance will make the coils run hotter, which may (likely) affect hi-RPM operation by weakening the spark "up there".

G'Day Mark, well this might explain a problem I am having at the moment, the rebuilt engine in my K1 starts great, idles well and up to around 4500 RPM, is as smooth as silk, but under load from 4500 RPM upwards it will miss and fart really badly, almost like it's running out of gas?

I checked the plugs and they're pretty sooty, (120 Main jets and #40 pilots with standard airbox) and the spark from the dyna S and dyna 3 ohm coils seems weak, even with a new battery. Could it be the caps? I haven't bought new ones yet, so the ones on mine are probably many years old? What do you reckon mate?

My ignition timing is spot on according to my strobe light,, my carbs are fine, there's tons of compression, so unless I've badly muffed the valve timing (Megacycle 125/75 cam and adjustable sprocket) I don't know what else could be wrong with it? Cheers, Terry.

I'd try some condensors, if you have another set somewhere, first. See if the points spark a lot while it's running. Little sparks are normal, but they shouldn't look like fireworks. This does sound like weak spark, but there are several things to check.
1. Condensors.
2. Make sure the ground strap on the engine is good: cleaned and tight.
3. Make sure the ground to the coils is good. Honda uses those little "bullet" connectors, and they can get dirty and lose their spring grip, especially on the female side, under that tank.
4. Check the battery voltage. Also, check it at the coils with the engine running (yellow and blue wires are points side, black wires are +12v side).
5. Are the carbs old, or have the needle jets and jet needles been replaced lately? Use real Honda parts here, I've heard bad things about Brand X needle jets and jet needles. With that cam, you may find that the top end must get leaned out a bit, like 110 main jets. That 5000 RPM is just about where that cam starts working. If 110 mains make it better, try 100 mains.

...I'm going to work on circuit boards now...   

[MRieck]

Terry
As Hondaman stated, drop the mains especially with the stock air box. Get new wires...you can use solid core with the Dyna S. What clip is the needle set at. It sounds way to rich thus the gagging, farting, chugging and whatever elsa they call it down under. If the cam were set that far off your compression wouldn't be that great.

[Terry in Australia]

Terry
As Hondaman stated, drop the mains especially with the stock air box. Get new wires...you can use solid core with the Dyna S. What clip is the needle set at. It sounds way to rich thus the gagging, farting, chugging and whatever elsa they call it down under. If the cam were set that far off your compression wouldn't be that great.

Thanks guys, well I'm gonna do a compression test tonight Mike, but my foot tells me that the compression is way up on the other engine, and although anythings possible when I'm twirling the spanners, I reckon I understood the instructions you sent me and the valve timing should have been spot-on?

I originally had 110 mains in those carbs and took them out and replaced them with 120's when I realised that it was missing and farting under load, thinking that it might have been running lean? Maybe I should pull the airbox off and go for a blat up the street? The clip is in the middle position, and all other carb settings are as per the book. (float level, mixture screws etc)

I'm running new 7mm solid core copper plug wires with the Dyna S and Dyna 3 Ohm coils, the battery is a new 12 volt 14 amp Yuasa, I ran an earth lead from the coils back to the (-) terminal on the battery, and another one from the engine case below the airbox back to the battery as well, to I've got new fuel line and filters, so I'm running out of ideas fast? At this point (before I pull the farking engine out again to check the cam timing) any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

[Terry in Australia]

Ok, I don't wanna hijack this thread, but it's kind of related, I went home and did a compression check last night, and it's only around 125 PSI per cylinder, (between 123 and 126 to be precise, I tested them cold first, then hot after a short ride and there was no difference, but as it was still 100 deg F when I got home at 6pm, I'm not surprised) so I did muff the valve timing, dammit. Oh well.

Interestingly enough though, when I pulled the plugs, the ones in cylinders 1 and 2 were still squeeky clean even though the engine had been run the night before? Hmmnnnn.......... I took the points cover off and started the engine, and noticed (not for the first time, I must admit) that the Dyna S rotor was rotating "off centre" somewhat? On closer inspection, the anodizing had actually worn thru where it was rubbing on one of the pickups? ooohhh..............

I've got a box full of electronic ignitions (I know, I can't help myself, I'm a scrounger........) so I pulled out another rotor and advance unit out and swapped them over, and started the engine again, and straight away it was better! Faster idle (I had to drop the idle about 500 Rpm where it settled down to a nice even idle at 1000 Rpm) and much quicker to accellerate! I hoped (even though I knew the compression was too low) that this was "problem solved", but of course, once the tach saw 4500 Rpm, my joy came crashing down.

Anyway, I'm not going to "dwell" (gettit?) on my incompetence, that was a foregone conclusion anyway, so tonight I'm gonna start pulling it out again, I won't make the Phillip Island Classic bike races deadline for next weekend, but that's no biggie, as much as I would have loved to be riding my classic 750 to the event, I'll get by on my classic Suzuki GS1000S instead. Cheers, Terry. (down, but not out)

[HondaMan]

Terry, try checking that cam timing while it's still in the frame?
You can put a feeler gauge (.002") in the gap, then turn the engine until it traps the feeler, to see where the cam starts. That should tell you if it's out of time...

Most car mechanics use the rule of .050" of lift is the beginning of the cam. Honda, Suzy and Kaw always used .5mm, which is about .020" instead.

Which carbs are you using? If it's Honda's "657" series, the needle clip should be on the 2nd notch from the bottom and the mains might be 100-105.

[Terry in Australia]

Shameless brown-nosing like that won't move you up in the line mate, ha ha!

[chippyfive50]

Shameless brown-nosing like that won't move you up in the line mate, ha ha!

come on Terrance,  you know you "crack a fat" when hondaman has a new thread....mate!

[HondaMan]

yeah terry , make sure you do a lot of testing in a downpour.  I am also wondering how it does while the rider is being chased by dingos, while wearing a sundress and an eye patch.  if there's time, see how far into the ocean you can run it before it shorts.  i think anything short of that owuld be taking advantage of mark's offer.  dont you?

and mark, it is still very ridable in baltimore, so there is no need to ship to australia to test your inventions- on a 550k1 at least.

man that was some good hondaman pole.
-KK

Hey, KK;
Did you see Sieck's post of how he mounted the box on the battery of his 500? Would that work on your 550?
I have 6 circuit board coming this week. If the weather's still rideable over there, wanna test one while Terry tests the other down under?

[Klark Kent]

i forgot to mention i am running green dyna coils (3ohm) and i think you said something about these first ones being built for honda coils, and my points/condensors are by no means new, but...

yeah i'm still riding, but mostly short trips.  obviously if given the opportunity to test your creation i would ride however i needed to to test it properly.  i am afraid though that these flurries we are getting now will shut baltimore down.  the city doesnt plow, they just spread crap (salt and sand) all over the road and drive big trucks over it.  1 or 2 inches and the government takes the day off,.  and the cagers heredont know how to drive in snow, they start flipping out, just jamming on brakes and turning themselves into low altitude cruise missles, so i will probably be off the road for a few days, but i will keep you posted if the weather takes a turn for the better or worse.  if there is someone in a more temperate clime in the meantime i would defer to them.

as far as the battery mount, i looked at it again and it seems like it shuold be the same on my bike- if my old rubber strap still has enough oomph to stretchover it (what are your final dimensions?) if it is bigger than sieck's i may have trouble fitting it in the strap, but am confident that me and my zip ties could figure something out for a test.

-KK

[HondaMan]

Boy, do I understand that part: it's dropped another 8" of the 1"-2" forecast here, and no signs of letup yet...

Well, I do need to find someone who is running Honda coils that has rideable weather. It's simply impossible to ride here, the roads have been so bad since the December storms. Is anyone in this round in some place like Florida or Texas, or maybe California?

In the meantime, for those intersted, here is the installation schematic (not the module's circuit). If you're going to get one, you might want to spend the unridden days fixing up the electrics (as shown on this diagram's notes) to best take advantage of this gadget. These improvements will make you ignition work better, even if you don't install this new module.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey if you need another test pilot Mark, what about Tim (KGhost) in Texas? He's got several CB750's and his weather is similar to mine, even in winter? I know he's a "riding fool" like me, so he'll get plenty of opportunities to test your creation? I know Charlie in Sydney (750goes) wants one bad too, but I'm not sure if his bike is ready to go yet? Cheers, Terry.

[kghost]

Yes I'd test one for you.

Got a couple 72 models.

Weather is still good down here.

[hcritz]

Same here Honda Man...
I'm in Mississippi...it's 60s here today... and I'm running stock coils and points.

[Terry in Australia]

I went to see snow twice, it was pretty, but I couldn't imagine living somewhere where I had to park my bike for several months each year, even in winter here it doesn't even rain much? Amazing!

[HondaMan]

Hey if you need another test pilot Mark, what about Tim (KGhost) in Texas? He's got several CB750's and his weather is similar to mine, even in winter? I know he's a "riding fool" like me, so he'll get plenty of opportunities to test your creation? I know Charlie in Sydney (750goes) wants one bad too, but I'm not sure if his bike is ready to go yet? Cheers, Terry.

Yes I'd test one for you.

Got a couple 72 models.

Weather is still good down here.

Same here Honda Man...
I'm in Mississippi...it's 60s here today... and I'm running stock coils and points.

Ah, I LOVE cooperation! 

Kghost, let's start with a '72, since that's what mine is and I have that soft spot...do you have stock coils or something hotter?
Hcritz: what kind of bike?

All 3 of you guys: while I build these (next week) and Terry, you get that hotrod a-runnin' good, let's set up this test plan:

1. One of you should try it with used points and stock Honda coils.
2. One of you should try it with new points and stock Honda coils.
3. Terry's gonna hit it with Dyna coils and new points - and high operating temperatures: the torture test!

If the schematic above is clear to you guys, let's pick who's gonna do what....it might take an understanding of wiring to get the first ones going while I make the manual clearer for those who aren't on a first-name basis with Voltaire...

[Terry in Australia]

Well I'm "Number Three" of course Mark, which I think is better than being called "Number 1" or Number 2", (pooooooo!) ha ha!

My K1 will be back up and running in the next few days, so plenty of time to give it a torture test in the hot Aussie sun, (it's cool here today, about 80 deg F) it'll stay like this for another couple of months, and will still be in the 70's as late as May.

I reckon I can understand your wiring diagram ok, although I'm guessing that the "Primary Feed Circuit" which needs "beefing up" is the wiring between the battery and the coils, is that right? Otherwise, it's as clear as mud! Ha ha, Cheers, Terry.

[750goes]

thanks for the mention Terry, you are right, bike is not street ready yet - have not had any time at all in the past month or two to do the few final steps in resurrection..my new workplace is over the fence from the local RTA, so that is no excuse either...
have to extract the digit real soon now.......but it's been ferociously hot the last few weeks - 44 celcius on Sunday - all f'n day...

[hcritz]

Hey HondaMan
Mine is a 77 750K...completely stock except for mufflers...
Points and Condensers were what were there when I bought it...bike had a touch over 10,000 miles...now has 17,000<G> I rode a LOT this summer!
Cleaned and adjusted the points not long ago.
Coils are Stock...I did surgery on them and replaced the wires this spring.
Stock air box and filter...

[HondaMan]

Hey HondaMan
Mine is a 77 750K...completely stock except for mufflers...
Points and Condensers were what were there when I bought it...bike had a touch over 10,000 miles...now has 17,000<G> I rode a LOT this summer!
Cleaned and adjusted the points not long ago.
Coils are Stock...I did surgery on them and replaced the wires this spring.
Stock air box and filter...

If all my shipments get here by Friday, I'll be building the first 3 this weekend!

Hcritz: Would you like to try the "used points" installation?
What might happen is this: it might backfire at some engine speeds, and I'd like to know which ones (if it does), or it might live with the old points just fine. Try to take it to redline a time or two, to make sure it does not stutter. If it does, you can always quickly disconnect this unit, reconnect the original wires and the condensors, and ride on.

All 3 of you guys: here's the installation routine:
1. Find a place to install the box. A good place is under the battery box: I'll try to post a picture of this over the weekend.
2. Gotta remove the gas tank (sorry...) to get to the black wire that feeds power to both coils under there. It has 2 female "jacks" in it that go to the 2 coils' BLACK wires. Unplug those and plug in the "adapter" that you'll get with the ignition: it will have two "jacks" in it. Plug the coils' BLACK wires into this adapter. At this point, everything is still stock. Now, plug the BLACK wire from the ignition module into the unused "jack" in the original Honda connector. This is the "main power" line to the module.
3. Put the tank back on.
4. Down next to the oil tank is a pair of wires, a BLUE one and a YELLOW one. These go from the coils to the points. The "jack" ends (female, again) go to the coils, the "plug" ends to the points. On the ignition module there will be 2 wires, a BLUE one and a YELLOW one, with "plugs" like the ones that come from the points. Plug these into the coils' "jacks", matching those colors.
5. The module has 3 wires left, and these colors don't match Honda's harness. One is VIOLET, one is ORANGE and one is GREEN. The VIOLET one will plug together with the BLUE one to the points. The ORANGE one will plug into the YELLOW one from the points.
6. Last is the GREEN wire. This is the module's GROUND. It can go to either the (-) battery terminal or to a screw on the engine. I recommend that you work it up to and through the rubber grommet where the points wires enter the engine, on the right side. You'll have to remove the points cover anyway, so try this route first. Run this wire to the right-side condensor's mounting screw, that's a good ground.
7. Last step: loosen the points bolts and slip out the condensor's wires. You don't want these connected, because they will delay the spark. Tighten those tiny bolts back down.

That's it! Maybe check the timing with a timing light after the installation so see if you can visually detect any misfires from the used points, then try running it. Let me know what happens.