Topic: Transistorized ignition, points style. First ones are ready!

[eurban]

Hey Hondaman-  Wondering a bit about the "droop" you noticed with the Dyna coils.....Could this be a function of insufficient voltage/current supply and would a relay setup reduce the droop??  Thanks

[Terry in Australia]

Hi Terry, nice looking bike- but I didn't realise you Aussie guys had arms as long as a Gorillas. Maybe that's why your bowlers do so well

If I didn't respect my elders so much John, I'd call you a silly old bugger, those "pullback" bars on my magnificent K1 "Kruiser" allow almost the same seating position as the OEM bars, and I can tell you that after a 60 mile ride to work this morning in 80+ deg F temps, it was a very pleasant experience indeed, ha ha!

As previously mentioned, my bike is now legally road registered, with a shiny new license plate to boot. I had to lie my ass off to get those government pencil-dicks at the DMV to allow it due to it's age, their computer data-base had no record of the engine or frame numbers, (no "VIN" numbers here in Oz in 1971)but luckily they eventually found a mention of the engine in their archives, apparently it was out of a bike last registered 25 years ago!

Anyway, it's on the road again John, and is a pleasure to ride. Nothing fell off on it's "maiden voyage", and there are no oil weeps either, which is great. Tomorrow I'll take it to the "Ulysses Club" Saturday morning meet, and show it to the old farts there whose memories go back that far, ha ha! I'm looking forward to receiving Mark's ignition, it'll certainly get plenty of use as I intend to ride the wheels off this thing over the next few months! Cheers, Terry.  

[HondaMan]

OK, looks like we're about ready to go. I'm soldering up several boards tonite, will be packaging the wiring tomorrow or so. Then I'll run them a little before sending them out.

If these prove successful I'll take 2 when you get into some more production.

I'll get you on the list!

About March 1 I'll be starting the "production model" units, after these other guys flog the prototypes for me. 

[HondaMan]

Hey Hondaman-  Wondering a bit about the "droop" you noticed with the Dyna coils.....Could this be a function of insufficient voltage/current supply and would a relay setup reduce the droop??  Thanks

No, it seems to be a function of the Q of the coil. If I drop the capacitance of the condensor, it gets better. This indicates a high turns ratio in the coil, not necessarily a more efficient magnetic style (like a Jacobs design). They get much warmer than the stock coils, too, which further indicates low efficiency. They draw about 4 amps at 45 Hz (2700 RPM) and drop to about 3.2 amps at 140 Hz (8400 RPM), so they don't recover as well as Honda's higher-efficiency design, which is 2.5 amps over the whole same range. This was kind of a surprise to me, but since most guys I know use them for around-town or drag-racing, it makes sense that they enjoy the improved spark in normal midrange operation. They would not do well in roadrace (10,000+ RPM) operations.

I think the best workaround, if you're doing hi RPM work with these Dyna coils, would be to increase the size of the wiring that feeds them and make sure to use resistance in the spark circuit, either in the plug caps or the spark plugs, rather than using resistance wire. The low efficiency will not set up a strong plasma in a spiral-wound, resistive, HV wire. Use copper spark wires, not silicone core types.

[HondaMan]

Terry:

I messed up on drilling the holes in the heatsink on the first unit (yours), so I have to make that piece over. It will take me until Sunday, probably.     

I didn't notice they were about .100" off to one side until I bent the lip up for mounting, then the PC board would not fit in the box.
I'd like to say a 4-letter word here, so.....SNOW.

[HondaMan]

I came across this in my travels in cyberspace, and wondered how this would compare to the one HondaMan is working on.  I realize it would take 2 of these for our bikes, but it sounds in essence to be the same thing he is working on now.
http://www.apogeekits.com/electronic_ignition.htm

That's the one Dave (and some others) were talking about. It's sorta similar, made for cars more than bikes. Has no case or anything, though. 

[oldman prof]

Good morning(sorry I don't know what time it is there),I know I'm taking a chance here but is there any way you can show me how to build that ignition box,I know its asking a lot but it will only be for 3 sohc's in our group and I don't think it will interfear with your sales,if you don't want to I will understand,but there's nobody this side that's interested in these old bikes they all think we're nuts.
 

[oldbiker]

Hondaman, is there any possibility that with that particular value of capacitor you were hitting the resonant frequency of the coil/capacitor combination? Since changing the capacitor value seemed to improve it, it could be one explanation.

[Terry in Australia]

Terry:

I messed up on drilling the holes in the heatsink on the first unit (yours), so I have to make that piece over. It will take me until Sunday, probably.     

I didn't notice they were about .100" off to one side until I bent the lip up for mounting, then the PC board would not fit in the box.
I'd like to say a 4-letter word here, so.....SNOW.

No worries Mark, I don't want to stress you out, in the meantime, what type of plug caps do you recommend, OEM, NGK, or maybe something else? I think someone pointed out earlier that the NGK resister caps didn't have as high a resistance figure as you recommended in one of your previous posts? I haven't bought new caps yet, so I'll wait for your reply, as I want to ensure that I buy the ones best suited to your design? Cheers, Terry.    

[HondaMan]

No worries Mark, I don't want to stress you out, in the meantime, what type of plug caps do you recommend, OEM, NGK, or maybe something else? I think someone pointed out earlier that the NGK resister caps didn't have as high a resistance figure as you recommended in one of your previous posts? I haven't bought new caps yet, so I'll wait for your reply, as I want to ensure that I buy the ones best suited to your design? Cheers, Terry.    

I think the 5K of the NGK plugs (resistor style) is probably OK. The caps that Honda sold had 10k resistors (+/-20%) inside the elbow. I have seen other caps, maybe like you're seeing, that have 5k-8k ohms. Any of them are better than none.

I got some heat sinks cut out tonite, will try to get them bent and riveted tomorrow. It's supposed to SNOW again... 

[HondaMan]

Good morning(sorry I don't know what time it is there),I know I'm taking a chance here but is there any way you can show me how to build that ignition box,I know its asking a lot but it will only be for 3 sohc's in our group and I don't think it will interfear with your sales,if you don't want to I will understand,but there's nobody this side that's interested in these old bikes they all think we're nuts.
 

In order to make one, you'd have to be good at electronic assembly. Is there anyone in your circle that does that? I don't think I could warranty a "kit" though, just because of the nature of electronic mis-assembly mistakes that can happen.

You'd also need some good tools, like drills, hand tools, etc. to machine out the box and make up a heat sink, if I can't find a useable commercial one (not very likely, it seems). This unit is pretty small, about the size of a thick cell phone, so you'll need nimble fingers, too.   

[HondaMan]

Hondaman, is there any possibility that with that particular value of capacitor you were hitting the resonant frequency of the coil/capacitor combination? Since changing the capacitor value seemed to improve it, it could be one explanation.

Well, changing the capacitor(s) to several values is how you measure the Q of the coil. That's standard electronic practice. When you find capacitance that matches the Q perfectly, the highest output appears at a given frequency. Then, lowering the capacitance makes the frequency of the peak output rise (within the bell-shaped curve of the resonance) and vice-versa. I used capacitors of the same automotive type that all these systems have to use: they must be non-inductively wound, polyester or polypropolene insulator, 400wvDC minimum rating. The capacitance ranged from 0.16uf to 0.47uf in the process. The active range is 0.20-0.26uf for both the Honda and Dyna coils, but the Dyna peaks at about 0.28uf while the Honda ones are at 0.24uf. This indicates the lower output RPM peak of the Dyna.

Yeah, I've spent about $350 so far in research components, and I think it's going to be at least a year before I recover those costs. It's been interesting and revealing, and a bit nostalgic, but expensive and time-consuming. I'm glad to be past the Engineering part and into the building part. Now, I can build them while I sit next to my wife and the fire.  In all this SNOW....

[oldman prof]

Thanx hondaman,I run a work shop that has most of the tools( hand drills,drll press,band saws,coldcut saws,taps,dies,benders,rollers) and my bosses father is the head tutor in the machine shop training centre in simonstown navel dockyard and he has allready asked his buddy running the ellectronic t/centre to help us. I'v made sure I had all the help I needed before I contacted you because mechanics I know but the closest I get to electronics is simple wireing connecting(car, bike,household things)
Thanx again,I hope you'll help
Anthony

[oldbiker]

Since res. frequ. is the inverse of 2Pi√LC, I agree with your argument. You have obviously covered all bases. I presume from your reference to snow that you are in the UK. I'm in Coventry.

[Terry in Australia]

Since res. frequ. is the inverse of 2Pi√LC, I agree with your argument. You have obviously covered all bases. I presume from your reference to snow that you are in the UK. I'm in Coventry.

No John, Mark lives in Colorado in the US. Apparently it snows there too. I've been to the snow once, but it didn't do much for me mate, I spent more time falling on my ass than standing, and I wasn't even drinking! Cheers, Terry.

[HondaMan]

Since res. frequ. is the inverse of 2Pi√LC, I agree with your argument. You have obviously covered all bases. I presume from your reference to snow that you are in the UK. I'm in Coventry.

...yeah, like Terry said...and, it's been a record year: by January 12 we've already had a whole winter's snowfall, and more than 2/3 of our snow comes between February and mid-May.   

Oldbiker: I'm an Electronics Engineer, by training, the old "analog style" from the 1960s. Since then, I've also become an Electrical Engineer, Digital Electronics Engineer, Controls Systems Engineer and Electro-Mechanical Engineer. (Not to be snobby or anything, just to let the readers know that this ignition thing isn't a hack job: I've designed hundreds, maybe thousands, of devices like these since 1965).   

[Terry in Australia]

Hey Mark, you're obviously a wiz at electronics, so do you reckon, as a side project, you can come up with a device that trains wives not to nag?

I'm thinking maybe an implant with some sort of timing device so that after say, 30 seconds of whining about the lawns needing mowing, or that painting job I promised 2 years ago, or even just pulling down the Christmas lighting, she gets a small electric shock?

Nothing serious mind, just say, 250 volts and 15 amps? Whattya reckon mate, i'll be happy to "road-test" any device you come up with? Cheers, Terry. 

[Patrick]

Terry, we shouldn't talk that way about our wives. As everyone knows, a man is not complete until he is  married. Then he's REALLY finished......

[TwoTired]

Hey Terry, just get some of this jewlery for her.  Have it coustomized with her birthstone and a gold heart shaped padlock.

Works a treat! ...unless she has an affair with a locksmith...

http://www.petstreetmall.com/Home-Training-Collars/3976/527/

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Excellent ideas guys! I was just trying to determine what bribes I needed for Valentines Day.

[HondaMan]

Hey Mark, you're obviously a wiz at electronics, so do you reckon, as a side project, you can come up with a device that trains wives not to nag?

I'm thinking maybe an implant with some sort of timing device so that after say, 30 seconds of whining about the lawns needing mowing, or that painting job I promised 2 years ago, or even just pulling down the Christmas lighting, she gets a small electric shock?

Nothing serious mind, just say, 250 volts and 15 amps? Whattya reckon mate, i'll be happy to "road-test" any device you come up with? Cheers, Terry. 

I might be behind the curve there, Terry: I think T.T. has already found one!

I finally got unit #1 working and assembled: it's testing with some Dyna coils right now. Here's a pix:

[Terry in Australia]

That looks excellent Mark, woohoo!

[SD750F]

HondaMan,

Send me an email regarding a company that can produce your product assembled. I have my business that does electronic design, assembly, and has a web site. Maybe we can work something out together.


Scott

Company: www.blueskyavionics.com

[hcritz]

Hey Mark!
Looks good!
I'm inspired...think I grab the scoot for a quick ride this afternoon...not too chilly here today and the sun is shinin'!

[HondaMan]

That looks excellent Mark, woohoo!

Terry, it's snowing here again.....
I might send this to you without trying it out on my bike first, as I cannot get to mine in a warm enough situation to start the poor thing up. We've already had more than a normal winter's snow, and the big snow months don't start here until the end of this month. But, it snows every few days, it seems. 

It's been tested for hours on the setup you see above: I'll send along some instructions on how to mount it and what things I'd like you to check on it from time to time.