Topic: Transistorized ignition, points style. First ones are ready!

[HondaMan]

HondaMan,

Send me an email regarding a company that can produce your product assembled. I have my business that does electronic design, assembly, and has a web site. Maybe we can work something out together.


Scott

Company: www.blueskyavionics.com

Wow, you might be overqualified, based on the avionics devices I see at work (Adam Aircraft). This is a simple gadget!

[Sam Green Racing]

for simple sohc4 nuts, 

[Terry in Australia]

That looks excellent Mark, woohoo!

Terry, it's snowing here again.....
I might send this to you without trying it out on my bike first, as I cannot get to mine in a warm enough situation to start the poor thing up. We've already had more than a normal winter's snow, and the big snow months don't start here until the end of this month. But, it snows every few days, it seems. 

It's been tested for hours on the setup you see above: I'll send along some instructions on how to mount it and what things I'd like you to check on it from time to time.

No worries Mark, sorry to hear about your snow, it's 90 deg F as I type this at 6pm, so it's good that we're balancing each other out, ha ha! My K1 is now legally road-registered and raring to go, so feel free to send it anytime you like mate, do you fill the unit with epoxy to keep the rain out? Rain is most unlikely in these parts I might add, but high pressure washers and electronics don't mix that well? Cheers, Terry.

[SD750F]

HondaMan,

Send me an email. I am extremely familiar with DO-160 testing and determination criteria. And qualified assembly with traceability is no problem. Let me know. Also I would never consider myself "over qualified" to make your points saver circuit. Being a SOHC fan and owner makes me qualified! 


Scott

[HondaMan]

No worries Mark, sorry to hear about your snow, it's 90 deg F as I type this at 6pm, so it's good that we're balancing each other out, ha ha! My K1 is now legally road-registered and raring to go, so feel free to send it anytime you like mate, do you fill the unit with epoxy to keep the rain out? Rain is most unlikely in these parts I might add, but high pressure washers and electronics don't mix that well? Cheers, Terry.

It's watertight, probably to about 10 feet down. Don't test that part, though....

I will send it this weekend, because I have to go to the Kinko's store to ship international. In the meantime: do you have any of the little Honda-style "bullet" connectors and sockets, maybe from an old wiring harness? Mine are all gone, and I don't want to hold this up for those, if possible.

You'll need 2 bullet ends and 2 female ends where the points wires plug into the coils now, down by the oil tank. If you make them the same as the Honda ones, then "switching back" on the roadside will be very easy, should it quit on you. That's part of the whole plan, anyway.

I don't know how you connected your Dyna coils to the +12 volts, but the black wire from this unit should go to that same point, if possible. The green wire already has a little ground lug on it: connect it under one of the points plate's 3 mounting screws. You should be able to slip it through the grommet at the back side of the points cover.

The box has a flat strip of sheet metal attached to it: this is the mounting plate. Remove the bike's battery, then lift up the rubber cushion at the bottom of the battery box, just a little. Bend one side of this strip up at about 90 degrees, then slip it under the back end of the battery box, under the rubber, and bend it flat across the bottom of the box. Do the same with the other end, through the front of the box, and set the rubber and battery back down it to hold it all together. I'll try to get a picture of it and post it here before you get the unit so this makes more sense. That's all it takes to mount, on a CB750K. (I haven't figured out the "F" units yet, I'm hoping to meet RXmanGriff for that).

[CrisPDuk]

Will one of these gizmo's work on a 550K Mark?

If so, I'm extremely interested

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Hey,

Did I hear someone talking about me? Was it that self described "mercinary bastard" Kooler King from OZ? Thank goodness, it was Mark Hondaman. Gosh Mark, if this weather ever lets up we can get together with the bikes. Otherwise I guess you and the Mrs. will  just have to come on down for some hospitality. I love grilling in the cold and snow. Did it again tonight. We can even check out the F. If you can find time one weekend please let me know. I draw the line at breaking out the scuba gear for a depth test however. Hypothermia is bad enough when you are dry.
 

[SD750F]

Mark,

Another note. You had indicated that you haven't figured out a mounting location for the F series as  of yet. Well I have a 1978 750F... So maybe there is another area we can work together.


Scott

[HondaMan]

Will one of these gizmo's work on a 550K Mark?

If so, I'm extremely interested

Yep, sure will. And, on any negative-ground bike with 2 sets of points.
I'm also working on one for the Brit bikes like Bonnevilles, etc., because some of my friends here have them. Setting points on them is not so easy as on a Honda, either. This will greatly improve the time-between-points replacement cycle.

And, maybe next winter, I'll make an add-on electronic trigger for it, for the guys who want to go all-electronic and play with the spark timing digitally.   

But, that's next winter.

[CrisPDuk]

In that case I'm definitely interested

I'll keep an eye out here to see when Terry's finished Aussie-proofing it, and lets face it, if it's Aussie proof, it's anything proof Then just let us know how much you'll be charging, and you can count me in

On the elecronic trigger front, are you thinking mappable,  or just to get rid of the points?

Reason I ask is because that mappable stuff is good sh!t man I fitted a kit to my lumbering old Ford V6, and got a skip load of extra mid range power and responsiveness, and better economy into the bargain OK it's only 3-5mpg better, but when you are only getting 15-20 in the first place every little helps

[Dennis]

And, maybe next winter, I'll make an add-on electronic trigger for it, for the guys who want to go all-electronic and play with the spark timing digitally.   

 

That would definitely be very cool Mark.

BTW: Please don't forget that I would like to use one on my RD. I could probably find some other strokers who might be interested also. Do you think any additional testing would be necessary for those applications?

[zoomer]

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeps of two strokers!

[HondaMan]

And, maybe next winter, I'll make an add-on electronic trigger for it, for the guys who want to go all-electronic and play with the spark timing digitally.   

 

That would definitely be very cool Mark.

BTW: Please don't forget that I would like to use one on my RD. I could probably find some other strokers who might be interested also. Do you think any additional testing would be necessary for those applications?

Sure, it will work fine on strokers, too. The SOHC4 engines run the thing at crank speeds, so 10,000 RPM (167 Hz) is the same, either way.  I don't think it will work with magnetos, though, as the pulse might be too short in those units (maybe). Suzy had some of those points + mag in the early-mid 1970s strokers. They improve the dwell, if the pulse is high enough, so with stock coils it MIGHT actually work: someone might have to test Terry's used unit when it comes back, just to see.   

[HondaMan]

On the elecronic trigger front, are you thinking mappable,  or just to get rid of the points?

Yeah, I'd like mappable, too. When I was building 14k-16k RPM 750 engines, it was REAL difficult to get past the "flame wall" at about 13,000 RPM in these engines. You had to retard the timing about 4-6 degrees right around there, then advance it some more after it "hooked up" past that spot. The mechanical contraptions we made barely fit under the (pounded-out) points cover and they were somewhat unpredictable with temperature.

Electronics would have fixed all that.

Ideally, adding advance under light load, backing it off a little as loads increased, then pouring it on at high RPM with rich jets (and new needles and seats) is the perfect order. Hard to predict, but fun to ride!

[Terry in Australia]

someone might have to test Terry's used unit when it comes back, just to see.

"Comes Back"? What you talking about, Willis?

Ha ha, hey Mark, while you're on a roll, what about you go the whole hog and start looking at electronic fuel injection?

I know there was non-electronic injection around as an aftermarket kit "back in the day", but I'd love to have a mighty CB750 with electronic injection and get rid of the pesky flat-spot rdden OEM carbs? How cool would that be? Cheers, Terry.

[CrisPDuk]

Hi Terry

From my limited experiences with mapped ignitions (automotive only) I would say all the complication that comes along with electronic injection may not be necessary.

On the first car I had mapped ignition fitted on, an Austin A35 with a 1380cc A series on twin SUs it didn't matter what we did with the carbs and the clockwork dizzy there were always flat spots somewhere in the rev range. After we disposed of the distributor and installed the ignition brain, the flat spots all but disappeared. They didn't go completely, but with such a heavily compromised design as that engine they never would

You would probably find that with 'proper' ignition the far less compromised Honda engine will run flat spot free

Like I said before, my V6 Sierra that's got it fitted now is a transformed beastie and that's still running it's original Bosch 'K' mechanical injection too   The only difference between the two in my case is that we threw the crappy Lucas distibutor away on the A35 and fitted a trigger wheel on the nose of the crank, because getting a decently accurate triggr wheel and sensor into that bay, ad the Sierra runs a well designed and constructed Bosch Hall Effect distributor anyway, we kept it, just took out the bob-weights and locked the baseplate

[HondaMan]

someone might have to test Terry's used unit when it comes back, just to see.

"Comes Back"? What you talking about, Willis?

Ha ha, hey Mark, while you're on a roll, what about you go the whole hog and start looking at electronic fuel injection?

I know there was non-electronic injection around as an aftermarket kit "back in the day", but I'd love to have a mighty CB750 with electronic injection and get rid of the pesky flat-spot rdden OEM carbs? How cool would that be? Cheers, Terry.

Well, I figured after you cooked this one but good for me, I'd give you a Production model to replace it. I'm sure there will be some sort of improvement. I just ordered some pretty, anodized cases today, in blue and in gold. The Dyna coils make it run noticeable hotter, so I think I might make a "normal" and a "high performance" version with bigger heatsinks on the Dyna-capable units. Naturally it costs more for bigger, so I got those in the gold... 

I've already been on the EFI trail. I am thinking of patterning it after the Kaw LTD system from the late 1980s. If I make an electronic points replacement, the same plate can contain triggers for the EFI as well, all together in one unit. The coils would run from the unit we are testing now, and the injectors, Bosch units, would be broken into 2 banks, where the Kaw was only 1 and suffered for it. The injector wiring is: 2 in parallel on 1-3 and 2-4 cylinders: the Kaw had all 4 firing at once, and had flat spots and cold-running troubles for it... The only thing that has to be mapped out is the fuel-air table, and with multiple triggers, I can prefuel for low RPM and back-fuel for WOT runs, reducing the lean-out tendencies that some EFI units have on these little engines.

It only remains to see who might want to pay $400 for an EFI system for a bike that could be purchased for $250.

But, I want one, so at least one will get built.   

[GammaFlat]

WOW!

I imagine injection would smooth a ton of problems like cold starting, tuning, consistent operation across RPM ranges, etc. 

Some folks would probably miss fiddling with the carbs.  Not me.  With changes to our fuel, exhaust systems, air intake, etc., I know my carbs aren't right and I doubt they ever will be.  I silently wonder how many other 750-4 guys and gals are in the same boat - oops, I've said it aloud. 

Maybe some of the charm of the bike will be sacrificed with the removal of the carbs...  I for one will be anxiously watching your progress on the injection project.  I'd gladly buy one of your "point pirating" ignition systems but I already have a Dyna-S (I guess that says something about my bias toward making things "set and forget" and reliable).  (I'm actually tempted to sell the Dyna-S and go back  .) 

I think $400 is a reasonable target for an EFI system.  I think EFI would make the 750 a different animal. 

It is such a pleasure to have such incredible expertise looking at this stuff.  I'm not sure we understand how lucky we are. 

Thanks HondaMan!

[CrisPDuk]

I've already been on the EFI trail. I am thinking of patterning it after the Kaw LTD system from the late 1980s. If I make an electronic points replacement, the same plate can contain triggers for the EFI as well, all together in one unit. The coils would run from the unit we are testing now, and the injectors, Bosch units, would be broken into 2 banks, where the Kaw was only 1 and suffered for it. The injector wiring is: 2 in parallel on 1-3 and 2-4 cylinders: the Kaw had all 4 firing at once, and had flat spots and cold-running troubles for it... The only thing that has to be mapped out is the fuel-air table, and with multiple triggers, I can prefuel for low RPM and back-fuel for WOT runs, reducing the lean-out tendencies that some EFI units have on these little engines.

Paired injectors (1+4 & 2+3 though) is exactly how the set-up on our rally car worked Mark, and they worked very well You just had to remember not to stand behind it when it was started cold We never found time (too lazy?) to set up the cold start fuelling, so we just had it running overly rich, and pulsed the throttle, until it got warm enough for the temp switch to cut the regular map in More than one careless/hungover crewmember got his jeans set on fire by the 6' bolts of flame that fired out the back

Race cars over here though are generally set up with all four injectors firing together. I don't know why?  Maybe because they spend their lives running at higher rpms than us mudpluggers, and it's easier to meter the fuel up at those revs in 4 little parcels per cycle than 2 larger ones?

[Terry in Australia]

$400 for EFI? Sign me up Mark! Geez, I paid twice that for my (still unused) 29mm CR carbs! I wanty EFI, and I'll volunteer to be the club "Guinea Pig" too, Woohoo!!!

Ha ha, and of course when you do the "Hi-Po" Gold ignitions I'll have one too, but you better find a better mounting position, I wanna make sure that "bling" is out there where it will be noticed! Cheers, Terry.

[CrisPDuk]

I though $400 sounded a good price too I paid nearly £700 for the ignition kit alone on the A35 and just over £500 for the kit on the Sierra
Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have said that, I think Mark's UK retail price might just have gone up

Given the dubious heritage of the majority of your fellow countrymen Terry, If I were you I'd be a bit careful about leaving my bling where it can be easily accessed;)

[TwoTired]

I thought I read the whole thread and didn't see a projected sales price estimate for the points extender gizmo.  Did I miss that part?

Cheers,

[HondaMan]

I thought I read the whole thread and didn't see a projected sales price estimate for the points extender gizmo.  Did I miss that part?

Cheers,

You haven't missed it, T.T.: The case costs almost as much as the electronics, which cost like the PC board...I'm adding it up as I go, so I haven't nailed a good price yet. After they have been successfully tested a while, I'll have something solid. It will certainly be well under $100. How far under $100 depends on how big the "build lot" becomes. At 10 units, they're expensive, like $70. At 50 units, just the parts alone drop 40%. I've just absorbed all the costs so far, because I want one and know others would, too. And, one day Hitachi/ND might get tired of making points: then where will we be?   

[Terry in Australia]

Given the dubious heritage of the majority of your fellow countrymen Terry, If I were you I'd be a bit careful about leaving my bling where it can be easily accessed;)

Geez you're right there Crispy, apart from my family's legitimate Irish background, the rest of these bastards all came from English criminal lineage! Apparently though, the English government stopped transporting them when they realised that if they transported all the criminals to Australia and America, there'd be no-one at all left in England, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.  

[CrisPDuk]

 

Actually most of those transported were Welsh & Scots, something to do with worrying livestock as I recall