Author Topic: 650 into 550/500 frame advice  (Read 1772 times)

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Offline rusty2078

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650 into 550/500 frame advice
« on: July 20, 2016, 09:47:13 AM »
Hi all, I've been looking at several different threads on this topic, and it seems that up here finding a good running SOHC 650 as a donor is a financially good way to go for extra HP. I am also wondering about using the rear wheel and swingarm (possibly) on a 550/500 frame? are these interchangeable? I've tried looking up parts numbers and cross referencing but not too much luck thus far. Main reason being, is that I recently picked up a pretty much intact/non running 73 500, but am rather loathe to start using this as a franken bike project...and a 650 engine in the 550 frame, modern suspension updates, etc etc will make for a better daily commuter with a classic look.

Thanks for any and all input!

Offline CBGhia

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2016, 11:13:56 AM »
The engine swap is not very difficult.  It bolts right up.  I am in the middle of the process myself.  One issue I have run into is the petcock is hitting my carbs, but I am using CB750 carbs on the 650 engine.  Not sure if that will be an issue for you.

The swing arm is a few inches longer on the 650, but I think it will bolt into place.  You will need the 650 wheel and chain.
CB550 Cafe, GL1000, Buell Ulysses
if you dont trial spin the camshaft in the head and cover you are a novice,with no natural mechanical appitude,destined for destruction.
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2016, 11:26:25 AM »
I believe that the 650 swingarm will bolt in, but why use it? Assuming it is longer, you will likely need custom shocks, since the mount points are different on a 550 vs. 650.

You can use the 500/550 swingarm with the 650 motor.  The geometry on the 500/550 is excellent.

IF you use the 650 swingarm, you are not wed to the 650 wheel either.

1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline rusty2078

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 11:47:37 AM »
Thanks guys, kind of what I was hoping to find out...typically here the 550/500 are few, overpriced and sell quickly. Trying to get an idea for what all I can use from a donor 650 for a hybrid build. My preference is to retain the geometry/handling of the stock 550 and its aesthetic good looks while getting a few more hp...without an overbore, piston kit, etc etc. If I can use the 650 engine, wiring harness, wheels/rims on a donor frame, I believe I'll save some $$ over trying to find a roller/builder 550 up here. Cheers!!!


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Offline calj737

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 02:27:49 PM »
The most significant difference is matching up the wire harness. The 650 uses a CDI ignition while the 500/550 points. So you'll have to do a bit of fiddling and mapping, but it's not insurmountable.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Kemp

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 01:27:08 PM »
The 650 swingarm pivot bolt is bigger in diameter than the 550 or 750 for that matter.

Offline rb550four

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2016, 07:15:47 PM »
True , you have to drill out the swingarm bolt holes on the frame. Then it will go in easy, if you are using the entire 650 swing arm rear wheel, shocks, chain guard and chain there  will be no problem.
  If you want to run the 550 wheel in the 650 swing arm , there will be issues. as I recall the rear axle is a larger diameter on the 650. and if you get past that , the different chain size may be an issue. I have never switched a 550 front sprocket into the 650 engine so I don't know if it'll be a direct fit or just another issue....I do know that the 650 and 550 rear sprockets do not switch. I hope the 650 donor has spoke wheels ,if not, the others work fine but take some getting used to visually.
 The front end is the same way... You can switch the ENTIRE front end from 650 to 550 at the steering head. None of the parts that make a complete unit are interchangable between either unit...so it's either the 500/550 front end unit or the 650 front end unit.The 650 font forks are better than the 500/550... a touch longer too but if you hear that it'll throw off the numbers too much, fear not, you are only bringing it to stock 650 numbers . And to be frank , I feel that it is a total improvement over the 500/550's overall ride , without sacrificing nimbleness or stability.
  If you have the 81 Custom model ( I think that's the one) it comes stock with dual front disc brakes. The spoke wheel model never did and no one here has been able to make one accept a dual front disc brake yet.
  Wiring is a piece of cake if you swaped the entire front end over to 650 since the fuse box is right under the bars. There will be some customizing to do in the battery /air filter /CDI box area. 650 battery box ...will have to cut off the tool box and flip the RR to get it to fit under the sidcover on the shifter side. The battery box is not a direct fit but if you have a spare upper front engine mount bracket, it can be used at the rear of the battery box with stock  isolatorsand attached with a standard 6mm or 8mm nut and bolt and washers drilled into the frame. The cdis can be attached in a similar fashion also using isolator rubber and washer...note  I like to use a wide strip of old inner tube and wrap the cdi base and any area that  the cdi boxes could touch if they were to get loose or jarred. The 650 coils should be used and will require threaded 6mmstock /6mm connectors and 6mmlock nuts , all avail at a good hardware store...will require a drilling.
 The air filter unit is going to be a tight squeeze and will have to be installed while the rear fender removed, it makes it all possible. I can't remember if I used the 550 or 650 inner fender the last time I did it. But it will require home made mounting tabs to hold it against he frame on the brake side . I take the cover off the filter  and cut down 3 hardware store bought screen door, screen /storm window stays and bolt them agaist the fiter and filter seal, just for a touch more air under the sidecover.
  If you have an F frame you'll be in better shap than if you have a K frame.
    Brake pedal....the 550 F is the one I used on my first K model 650 swap. The stock K pedal didn't give enough clearance for the bottom mounted clutch cable.
   K sidecovers need to be cut around the carb area. The F model will look stock without cutting.
Well, that's all I got. good luck and have fun.                RB
   PS
  If you are planning rearsets , disregard the F brake pedal.
  "                            "pods forget the air box issue.
   "                           " cafe seat electric pan disregard the battery box setup  and most of the stock wiring.
  but whatever you do , have fun doing it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 02:19:41 PM by rb550four »
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2016, 07:07:34 AM »
RB,

Thanks for the comprehensive post.  That was informative.

Question: if you are using a 1979-1980 head, can you use a modernized airbox spaced for a 750: https://cognitomoto.com/collections/cognito-moto-originals/products/cb750-air-intake-box-sohc-and-dohc
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline rb550four

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2016, 02:23:08 PM »
Too Much?
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2016, 02:28:16 PM »
Too Much?

No, I really meant it.  Thanks!
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline rusty2078

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 03:43:20 PM »
Never too much advice when it comes to vintage bikes! So far, going to look at an '80 650 here with around 26k (in km) on it (hopefully tomorrow)...if the price is right on it, a good running donor bike for engine and electrical to swap in.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: 650 into 550/500 frame advice
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 04:52:02 PM »
The nice thing about the 1979 and 1980 motors is that those heads will allow you to run 750 carburetors, a step up from the 650 carbs. I am not sure if a 750 stock airbox will fit, but a Cognitomoto breadbox style box should fit.  If you go hogwild upgrading the performance of the 650 motor, you can also run CR26s.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold