Author Topic: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F  (Read 66230 times)

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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #375 on: November 19, 2018, 07:47:39 PM »
Been putting more miles on the bike since the engine rebuild. Rode around all Saturday, along Route 66 and halfway up Mount Baldy before I froze my ass and my knuckles off - 80 miles that day.
The bike can be better. With this much time and attention I put in so far, it deserves to be something more than it currently is.

These are the issues so far that bug the heck out of me (aside from some of the cosmetics like the seat and tank):

- 1st gear is not engaging correctly
- Blow-by
- Lean symptoms despite rich settings
- Oil leak at cylinder head cover

1st gear does this thing where it intermittently engages/disengages when going from idle to about 1/4” throttle. That’s really the best way that I can explain this beyond the egregious sound that it makes, “ka-chunk-rattle-rattle-ka-chunk...” When this happens the bike stutters and I’ve trained myself to then pull in the clutch and quickly shift up to 2nd. I should really just start on 2nd.
I’m tempted to drain the oil and drop the pan to find that there are teeth knocked out or some gear bits but I’m still working out some other issues while this break-in oil is stewing...

The blow-by issue is dumb because this can be the result of a few things. When honing the cylinders, there were some pretty deep gouges in the sleeves, as though there was some ring damage. I was fooling myself thinking I could try and hone those out.
Another possible contributor of the blow-by is the valve stem seals are shot; but these were recently replaced for new ones. I can’t see how those can go on a wrong way but I’m not saying that impossible either. And then there are the valves themselves which I lapped fairly well. I imagine those would be settled by now. None of them were bent in any way that I could see. Whatever the case may be, the blow-by hasn’t lessened. I have a container strapped to catch the vapor and any oil from the breather

And this may be only a portion of it since I didn’t have this catch container mounted until fairly recent. Normal? Excessive?

My spark plugs are looking real lean despite the following carb set up:
88 Main Jet (aftermarket purchase from 4into1.com)
40 Slow Jet
5th needle groove from top (last slot on the bottom)
1.5 turns out on air/fuel mix screws


As you know, I have air pod filters and an aftermarket exhaust (Outex).

I figured a raise in the needles - I had previously set them 4th groove from top and got lean results - would make for a richer condition but I’m getting the same lean result. Then, I was reminded of this chart:

NEEDLE TAPER. The needles I have in now are stock Keihin, the point of which is attempting to work with an aftermarket 88 main jet. TwoTired has mentioned something about this before where it was critical to get a correct needle taper profile and usually a bad idea to mix and match brands. These jets ordered from 4into1 might be different in shape and profile so maybe not a good fit; certainly not Keihin quality. But, perhaps they work well with their own brand? Luckily, I have a set of these needles from another 400F rebuild that ended up keeping the stock needles which obviously worked well. In any regard, referencing the chart above, needle taper does account for a bulk of the carb’s functionality. I’ll install these aftermarket needles to fit into the aftermarket 88 main jets to see how that goes. Will keep y’all posted.

This is all quite a setback. I’m tempted to replace the engine parts from the cylinder on up. I’m on the fence about overbore. I imagine there’s still a good likely hood of blow-by with that also...







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Offline minimo

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IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #376 on: November 20, 2018, 07:56:32 PM »
Oh, and the oil leak (besides the breather vapor/oil), well, that was just the top cover gasket being pinched between mating surfaces and tightened down without realizing it. Real dumb. I should be in the habit of applying Gasgacinch to these gaskets!


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« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 09:36:45 PM by minimo »

Offline minimo

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IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #377 on: November 20, 2018, 10:06:21 PM »
Here’s the stock Keihin (left) versus an aftermarket (right) needle:

May notice a slight nuance in taper profile. The slots at top are definitely distanced different from one another.

Here’s another thing I found interesting while disassembling these carb parts - something probably most of you won’t find too surprising but a couple of my stock Keihin needles get jammed in the emulsion tube before the E-clip even seats.

The needle probably doesn’t plunge this far down but something to consider as far as the taper is concerned. The needle pictured here really gets stuck at this point, not allowing it to push any further down as it should. So if you decide that mixing up stock with aftermarket is the way to go, consider my findings here because the setting in my photo here might be more like a number six slot from the top needle height setting.
This jam wasn’t consistent though as one of the other stock Keihin needles slid down and seated fine (though there was a feeling of light binding around the number stamping area on the needle). Also, the E-clips that come with these aftermarket needles have a real sloppy fit in the grooves. I’d consider using the stock Keihin E-clips; a much more snug fit and won’t jiggle around like the aftermarket ones.

So in effort to keep consistent with my aftermarket 88 main jet, I’m going to try these aftermarket needles (I’m fairly certain they’re made from the same factory) and hope that the tip is a better mate than with stock Keihin. I’m also swapping out the emulsion tube and installing the aftermarket ones to keep consistent with the idea that the needle taper will be a better matched fit.
Here’s what the set up looks like - the needle tip below should fit the aftermarket 88 main just fine, in theory

Needle clip is 3rd from top.

Fingers are crossed.

Keep y’all posted!



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« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 10:34:58 PM by minimo »

Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #378 on: November 26, 2018, 09:16:40 PM »
Will this build ever cease?

That piece was found in the oil pan and I feared what eventually was the case.

Speaking of case... if some of you were wondering if the case could be split without removing the top end.



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Offline strynboen

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #379 on: November 27, 2018, 03:07:14 AM »
yesss ..thats is my plan..to do..but vas not 100% it vas possibel..
now i can safe all gaskets.. and thange my camthain..and thek the horseshue mekanism..and get the new crank inn....just pull the buttom and valve cover
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #380 on: November 27, 2018, 01:47:12 PM »
Is the amount of slop on the front sprocket here way out?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EfkZtf1EPtkb860M_E-Mjrm1TybbhxNr/view?usp=drivesdk
Will check on bearing but I was thinking perhaps these sprockets wear a bit?


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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #381 on: November 27, 2018, 02:01:09 PM »
I would assume it is designed like the cb750 and it is meant to have some wobble
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #382 on: November 27, 2018, 02:06:32 PM »
Ah. Thanks, Sean. I’ll have to check more closely as this was probably done around midnight last night. Gotta love it


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Offline minimo

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IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #383 on: December 06, 2018, 06:43:56 PM »
Wanted to refer back to this image...

That piece between my fingers is a slice of the piston ring, 2nd one down from top, piston #2.
According to the manual, there’s a supposed taper to these rings, specifically that one that snapped on mine:

Curious how that broke so clean and not leaving much of a mark in the cylinder.
Here’s what my replacement looks like (from Cruzin Image, Japan):

With the “R” mark oriented on top, there appears to be a very slight taper from a profile view. Well, fingers are crossed this is the correct side up. This is also how I thought I had the ring set in the piston groove previously, otherwise I’m not sure how else it could have snapped - unless I did indeed have it flipped.

Meanwhile, ordered some parts. Making an attempt at replacing the whole top end to address a bunch of things like blow by and some stripped threads; I will definitely make a better effort to torque down to spec.
Here’s a shot of the cylinder and head, post hot and soapy bath:

Someone real smart had the genius idea of gluing the gaskets onto these parts. Made for a real not fun and dumb removal process.
I will say that out of ALL of the trials I went through and trying to remove the gaskets, AIRCRAFT Paint Remover (by Klean-Strip, sold here in the States) worked the best. The stuff even cleans up stubborn carbon deposits real well (consider pistons and exhaust passages in head, valves etc)
On this round of engine rebuild #4, I will keep the engine surface bare and not encapsulate it in paint as I’ve done previously. I think coating the engine case traps in some of the heat and makes the engine run hotter than it should.



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« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 06:55:37 PM by minimo »

Offline calj737

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #384 on: December 06, 2018, 10:01:09 PM »
I think coating the engine case traps in some of the heat and makes the engine run hotter than it should.
Nah. Anecdotal horse hooey. Paint or unpainted, it’s airflow that cools the engine. Paint is not thick enough to inhibit the radiation of heat.  :)
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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #385 on: December 06, 2018, 10:08:28 PM »
I think coating the engine case traps in some of the heat and makes the engine run hotter than it should.
Nah. Anecdotal horse hooey. Paint or unpainted, it’s airflow that cools the engine. Paint is not thick enough to inhibit the radiation of heat.  :)
Horse hoo-haw! Thanks, calj


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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #386 on: December 06, 2018, 10:49:55 PM »
POR-15 engine enamel is thick stuff, but you aren't using that. Painted a Volvo B20 (2.0L) iron block out of my '66 with it and it held up really well with good protection and gloss for years. It went on pretty thick and flowed out nicely without thinning for brushing it on.  I wouldn't choose it to paint my Honda MC motor though. Not because it wasn't good paint, it is...but, because it was so thick.  Hardest part was treating the block to degrease it...wasn't hot tanked as I did the rebuild over a weekend.
David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #387 on: December 08, 2018, 12:25:15 AM »

So, regarding piston ring gap orientation...
Any decent guess as to why the ring gaps must not be in the position of the piston pin boss or at right angle of the pin?


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Offline strynboen

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #388 on: December 08, 2018, 07:55:21 AM »
its not the point...its the spacing between the gap..vho must be 120 "grader"..they vill over time rotate..so its just a start point...its on 2 strokes the rings are locked by small pins..to be stasonary..so they not grab in a boost chanal..vith one end..

think the rekomandision is abaut the moment of the piston..forvard and backvert..at the turn points.(  piston all up) can be hard to nev rings..
but think not it is somthing you need to vory abaut
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 08:00:56 AM by strynboen »
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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #389 on: December 08, 2018, 06:12:28 PM »
Thanks, strynboen


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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #390 on: December 10, 2018, 10:23:23 PM »

Dowel pin 12x20. The ones pictured here are probably a bit too far gone. I’ve tried PB Blaster, heat (maybe not enough), some force with a set of dumb pliers and to no avail. These would be coming out of my old cylinder but before I place a dumb order just for a set of 4 new ones maybe there’s some nifty way to get these out before I squash them to oblivion?


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Offline MoMo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #391 on: December 11, 2018, 03:05:10 AM »
a few drops of Kroil and massive amounts of heat, twist while pulling up. Good luck, still probably need newbies....Larry

Offline Little_Phil

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #392 on: December 11, 2018, 06:51:12 AM »
If you're replacing them, I filed a small flat and then drilled a hole right thru and used the drill or a pin or wire thru the hole to pull them out.

Offline calj737

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #393 on: December 11, 2018, 07:18:31 AM »
“A bit of heat” is insufficient. Heat them up. You won’t damage a thing. Propane works, MAPP works better.
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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #394 on: December 11, 2018, 07:25:09 AM »
One of the two dowels have been slightly shaped out of round now due to me being dumb and trying to force it out by gripping and trying to get turns out of it with some channel lock pliers. No bueno. Still usable, maybe? These dowels act more as alignment guides and don’t really make a seal, correct? However, there are two of the outside corner dowels that do receive rubber seals that go around them, and those have fortunately come out with no issue.

Hot hot heat. Copy.
Will give it another shot tonight.
Thank yous!


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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #395 on: December 14, 2018, 07:38:16 PM »
Fresh ammo. Boom.



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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #396 on: December 16, 2018, 12:31:33 AM »
Feeling gooder about this. Fourth time’s a charm.



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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #397 on: December 23, 2018, 08:22:55 PM »
Season’s Greetings, SOHC peeps!

Went out for another ride after a yet another engine rebuild, this time makes number... three? Four?

First gear is still catching in a weird way. It shifts into first fine and all but when revving to about 1/4 throttle, there’s an egregious “clunk-clunk” like it’s falling in between engagement/disengagement. This is the best way I can describe it. I’m thinking maybe I installed the shift forks in a wrong way? The middle shift fork can only go in one way but the other two...
Hmmm. Could it be the gear shift mechanism behind the right-side cover? The manual and parts diagram that I’ve studied aren’t great at showing how the shift forms go.
Well, whatever the case, looks like I’m either gonna be riding out of second gear for a while or it’s time to split the case again to address this darn clunking.
Any ideas?


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Offline strynboen

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #398 on: December 24, 2018, 03:10:27 AM »
have you thekked for raundet dogs..(.clav clutches)..if there not are Sharp egdes..the  gear vill be forced to jump
.undercutting the gear can help(if the gear ..not are total veared aut)..but make the shift under powerharder to do..so you need to learn to do the power shift in a special vay let the pover off for a short..by shifting..or it just Lock in the gear...but it can not jump aut..
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Offline minimo

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Re: IDK Numero Dos - 1975 Honda CB400F
« Reply #399 on: December 24, 2018, 08:02:09 AM »
Thank you, strynboen. I will check for rounded edges on my clutch discs when I lean the bike and pop the clutch cover off. This is very peculiar...


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