Topic: 1972 CB500 "An Inherited Basket Case"

[540nova]

754 that's a clever way of doing it, I hadn't thought to just move the pivot forward. I imagine you've got to be a little more clever about fixturing while welding to keep everything aligned?

In other news, the bike fund took a little bit of a hit this weekend as I ended up picking up a truck!

It's a 72 Jeep J4600. Looks like a big project in the photos, but it has a freshly rebuilt AMC 360 with all the bolt on performance bits, refinished interior and wiring, good bones and all the rust repair and most of the body work already complete. Just needs a little more body work, some paint and a day putting all the trim back on. These J trucks are getting harder to find and I picked it up for less than the cost of the motor rebuild.





I'll finally have a good vehicle to haul all my other projects around with!

Good engine. I put a NOS 1970 Police Interceptor 360 in my Gremlin.


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[calj737]

754 that's a clever way of doing it, I hadn't thought to just move the pivot forward. I imagine you've got to be a little more clever about fixturing while welding to keep everything aligned?

You're really moving the pivot tube "back", not forward. And doing this, you have to shorten the arms, cut them loose, cut a new angle where they meet at the miter, then weld everything up again. It may not cost someone who can TIG weld much, but I assure you, it's a lot more work.

Simplest way is what I described as your shop confirmed. Section the straight leg, and butt weld it without cutting anything loose at the pivot. Plus, you maintain the geometry and clearances at the frame. The closer you bring the angle of the arm forward, the more likely to interfere with the foot pegs, exhaust and brake rod.

[540nova]

754 that's a clever way of doing it, I hadn't thought to just move the pivot forward. I imagine you've got to be a little more clever about fixturing while welding to keep everything aligned?

You're really moving the pivot tube "back", not forward. And doing this, you have to shorten the arms, cut them loose, cut a new angle where they meet at the miter, then weld everything up again. It may not cost someone who can TIG weld much, but I assure you, it's a lot more work.

Simplest way is what I described as your shop confirmed. Section the straight leg, and butt weld it without cutting anything loose at the pivot. Plus, you maintain the geometry and clearances at the frame. The closer you bring the angle of the arm forward, the more likely to interfere with the foot pegs, exhaust and brake rod.

Exactly.


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[754]

There is tricks if you have access to a mill,  but it could be scribed and ground out.
 I have cut the back before, extending a rectangular arm, shortening it if its a tad crooked will be noticeable..
yes, i may have to retaper the front, not sure yet.
Always a few ways to skin the cat..

[fantino]

Another slow couple of weeks on the bike. I picked up the Jeep two weekends ago and made it about 5 miles down the road before the cam and distributor gears ate each other. Common issue on AMC V8 rebuilds based on the number of Google hits on the issue. Spent last weekend fixing the truck and giving it a good inspection. A few mechanical and electrical issues to sort out, but shouldn't be more than another weekend or two of work.



Gotta admit, this sure is a lot easier than working on the BMW, I can hardly fit my hand in the engine bay let alone stand inside it with the motor still in it.

Anyways, I have the engine setup on my table so I can get the cam degreed in. New gaskets showed up from Dynoman, 0.010" base and 0.036" head to replace the 020 and 040 I originally purchased. Squish now measures right around 0.041" which I'm happy with.



I was having a little trouble degreeing in the cam as I was experiencing a collision. Turned out 1 of my rocker arms didn't get shaved down quite enough and was still hitting the cam. I will have that sorted out tonight and should get the cam degreed in this weekend so I can check valve to piston clearances and get my parts sent off for coating ASAP.

[fantino]

I haven't updated in awhile!

Finally finished up degreeing in the cam and checking clearances, had about .060" on the intake and .070" on the exhaust. Shipped off the pistons to Swaintech for thermal coating and once they come back I'll send the bearing shells, pistons, rings and wrist pins off to Microblue for WS2 coating.

In the meantime I can probably reinstall the transmission and finish up the hydraulic clutch conversion and oil lines to the head.

I also finished up mold design for the tank. Since my own printer is kind of small, I have to split it up into a bunch of smaller sections. I'm building them mostly hollow with a honeycomb structure and filling the open space with expanding foam for structure. I'll bond all the sections together resulting in 3 parts (left, right and gas cap).





I have the gas cap section printed. Since the surface is striated due to the printing process and PLA doesn't sand particularly well, I've coated the surface in a mixture of glass microspheres, fumed silica and epoxy. This makes an easily sandable fairing compound that self levels over the grooves in the printed part.



I ended up painting the surface for the final round of sanding and polishing, it was too hard to see scratches in the white surface. I will pigment the fairing compound in the future.



I will use the gas cap section to make a few small test pieces for evaluating the structural soundness of the laminate and some extended submersion tests in pump gas. It will also be a good opportunity to test the mold release agent on the materials I've chosen before I layup a full-size part.

[540nova]

Slacker.


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[fantino]

Slacker.

Right? I've been slacking off with two jobs and my other two active car projects ;-p

I have largely been focusing my time to get the truck running well, as I would like to do some camping this summer with the little 50s canned ham trailer I fixed up a few years back. The plan is still to get the bike rideable by July or August though.

[fantino]

First post in awhile, but don't give up hope! I haven't forgotten about my bike, just got very busy with 70 hour work weeks, fixing up the truck and buying a house. I have been making progress nonetheless.

Swingarm is finally back from the frame shop. They shortened the arms two inches, straightened and repaired it where needed and clearanced the brace so I can run an 18" rear wheel. They also converted the shock mounts so I can run eye to eye shocks instead. Luckily the rear axle size is the same, so minimal work is required to bolt up the wheel. Items remaining on the swingarm swap:

-turn spacers for the rear axle
-turn brass bushings to adapt the stock 14mm pivot bolt to the arm which took a 15mm axle
-weld on a brake stay
-drill and tap new holes for the chain guide







I also picked up a set of gazi sport lite shocks. I'm very happy with them, fully rebuildable, lightweight alu body, adjustable rebound and height and the bottom mount can be detached and replaced with a different fitting or length. The bushings are nice spherical units.





Started rebuilding my rear Cush drive. The old rubbers were turning into dust and very compressed and stock replacements are NLA and fairly expensive to track down, so I bought a set of NOS parts and made a silicon mold. I'm molding them from 90A urethane. Supposedly the urethane doesn't require vacuum degassing, but I'm ending up with enough porosity to think it's necessary.





I'm finally making some progress on the tank! I got a little discouraged when my approach for printing mold sections was resulting in large, rigid but warped parts that wouldn't match up. I ended up switching to a thin wall build of the basic surfaces which I've been able to bend into place and hot glue together. I'll fill the back side with expanding urethane foam to bond all the sections together and give it some structure and then I'll coat the mold surfaces in thickened epoxy to smooth out the striations from 3D printing before sanding and polishing smooth. Next steps:

-print second half of upper mold and lower mold sections
-stiffen sectioned mold, fair out mold surfaces
-make coupons of laminate for testing





Lastly I ended up changing my approach on the clutch conversion. The threaded cylinder I spec'd out was technically capable of doing the job, but I grossly underestimated how much hand force would be comfortable to actuate the clutch. The small diameter of the threaded cylinder would have been too much of a strain to use effectively.

With that in mind, I decided to start from scratch with a new cover plate, adapting a hydraulic clutch cylinder from a CBR1000. It uses the same pushrod diameter, so it's an easy fit. I'm choosing to leave the starter and oil pump exposed, it's a little less tidy, but I'm running fairing anyways. The cover needed milled on the backside to clearance the sprocket and I will be running a 520 chain and 16t sprocket to allow for extra clearance to the hydraulic unit. It leaves the sprocket and chain more exposed towards the front of the motor, but again, I'm not too concerned about the exposure. I may make a thin CF cover over the oil pump area if the chain flings too much grease on the engine.











The cover plate weighs about 1.25lbs less than the stock cover with everything attached. I still need to decide how to finish the cover plate. As I side note, I'm ditching the kick start. It's not much of a purist move and doesn't save quite as much weight as dropping the starter, but with how I plan to use the bike, a kick-start is entirely unnecessary and I won't need to figure out how to make the lever clear the rearsets and exhaust.

The only other news is the pistons and bearings are out for WS2 coatings, which is the last internal engine modification before final re-assembly.

More updates soon!

[540nova]

Great stuff!


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[fantino]

Great stuff!


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Thanks!

I just put in a pre-order for an M-Unit Blue, Pretty excited about that. I'm just about finished with the rewire of my Jeep, which was really good practice for building a nice loom for the bike. I've learned a lot about what not to do and how to make a very clean looking harness.

I'm still on the fence about connector types - weatherpack (cheap but big), Molex (cheap and small, but fragile and not sealed, likely only useable on switch connections), standard deutsch connectors (somewhat expensive, but sealed and smaller than WP), Deutsch motorsports round connectors ($$$$).

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Great stuff!


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Thanks!

I just put in a pre-order for an M-Unit Blue, Pretty excited about that. I'm just about finished with the rewire of my Jeep, which was really good practice for building a nice loom for the bike. I've learned a lot about what not to do and how to make a very clean looking harness.

I'm still on the fence about connector types - weatherpack (cheap but big), Molex (cheap and small, but fragile and not sealed, likely only useable on switch connections), standard deutsch connectors (somewhat expensive, but sealed and smaller than WP), Deutsch motorsports round connectors ($$$$).

I have the "standard" m-unit already purchased plus an m-lock so no "blue" for me.  Since I have an iPhone and they still have not worked out Apple product compatibility, I guess I am okay.  Can you provide some additional info on those connectors?

[fantino]

Weatherpack are your basic automotive weatherproof connectors. sealed for good environmental protection, fairly inexpensive and affordable crimping tools are available. They interlock with a snap and hook feature and are very resistant to coming loose. They're not very compact, however.


Molex are commonly found in board level connectors in PCs and other electronic equipment. Inexpensive, crimpers are common and affordable, very lightweight and very compact. They are fairly fragile, not sealed and most configurations rely on a friction fit. May be a good candidate for smaller wires running to switches since they are so compact.



Deutsch DT connectors are similar to weatherpack, but are just nicer. Better fit + finish, better locking mechanisms, a bit more compact. They use round barrel pins instead of the stamped v-shaped type common in many other connectors. Crimpers are fairly expensive, but there are some cheaper Chinese crimpers that are probably OK. The connectors themselves are about 1.5-2x the cost of weatherpack. These are pretty common for custom automotive rewiring, especially for motorsports and engine bay applications.



Deutsch AS connectors are mostly found in high end motorsport applications. Circular connectors with metal bodies and high density pinout options. These are very robust, environmentally sealed and are quite honestly overkill for my project (especially at 10-15x the cost of a DT connector). But they look super professional and are nice for the main trunk of the harness as you can twist all of the wires in a neat, concentric bundle.

[calj737]

If you are using the M-Unit, you have 2 far easier options: the M-Button or simply run your harness directly to the M-Unit without any intermediate connections. Further, the wire gauge needed with the M-Unit is 22awg for inputs, and can be as low as 20, mostly 18AWG for outputs.

While the high-end automotive connectors are very sexy, they are ALL completely overkill for your motorcycle both in amperage (very small with a bike) and size (every square inch on a motorcycle is precious real estate). Organizing your power looms into separate, "service" looms with clean and neat sleeving, fastened against the backbone (or run inside the backbone) is every bit as sexy in my opinion without the expense.

I do use automotive type Molex connectors (similar to the stock type, just smaller and cleaner) when someone isn't using an M-Unit or sub-harnesses are required.

So it all boils down to looks really. There's zero additional performance from these connectors and added size and expense. Use the highest quality wire, tin the ends, shrink wrap the fittings/ferrules/connectors and go. Weatherproof for the next 40 years.

[fantino]

Isn't the m-button a bit temperamental re: EM interference?

I don't think any of those connectors are necessary, but 80% of the work on this bike wasn't necessary either, haha.

For reference, my current wiring project I'm mostly just using spade and ring terminals. Everything is crimped with a quality crimper, labelled, sheathed with braided sleeving and sealed with melt liner. I'm pretty sure my harness will outlast most of the rest of the vehicle. It looks clean and tidy, but it doesn't really stand out. I also wish it were possible to easily disassemble some of the sub-looms at their main junctions quickly and easily for access to some tighter areas in the engine and under the dash. Not as big of a concern on the bike I suppose, but it's a nice option.



The sparkies at work all advised against tinning stranded copper wire for crimped connections. They claimed it reduces fatigue life of the joint due to strain from the increased joint rigidity. I'm not terribly experienced with the finer details of electrical, so I don't know to what extent that may be true.

[calj737]

The M-Button is temperamental is not installed within steel bars. There are ways around that too, and I don't prefer them, but others use them happily.

Marine wire is fully tinned actually. Another great option for use on a motorcycle. There are numerous options for sexy sleeving out there too if you're goal is to "highlight" the harness looms. Me, I gravitate towards organized, clean, and out of the way as an example of professional wiring.

With an M-Unit, sub harness service is seldom ever necessary unless you are swapping a gauge, damage your bike, or are rebuilding it. Just run the wire end-to-end and if needed, remove from the M-Unit with the entire loom. Doing this also facilitates quick and easy changes of the behavior of your switch gear functions. You can decide to make the "top" button a HORN instead of HI by simply relocating the position at the M-Unit.

Also, wire gauge is a great indicator of signal or power with an M-Unit. Signals all can be 22-24awg. Makes for much smaller and neater looms. That's an issue for the Deutsch connectors too; theyre often hard to find in the smaller sizes as they're targeted to higher amperage installations.

[540nova]

Isn't the m-button a bit temperamental re: EM interference?

I don't think any of those connectors are necessary, but 80% of the work on this bike wasn't necessary either, haha.

For reference, my current wiring project I'm mostly just using spade and ring terminals. Everything is crimped with a quality crimper, labelled, sheathed with braided sleeving and sealed with melt liner. I'm pretty sure my harness will outlast most of the rest of the vehicle. It looks clean and tidy, but it doesn't really stand out. I also wish it were possible to easily disassemble some of the sub-looms at their main junctions quickly and easily for access to some tighter areas in the engine and under the dash. Not as big of a concern on the bike I suppose, but it's a nice option.



The sparkies at work all advised against tinning stranded copper wire for crimped connections. They claimed it reduces fatigue life of the joint due to strain from the increased joint rigidity. I'm not terribly experienced with the finer details of electrical, so I don't know to what extent that may be true.

As a licensed A&P Lead Aircraft Mechanic for Continental/United Airlines, I can tell you that standard practice in aviation is to NOT use soldered connections, or tin the end of wires prior to crimping. 99% of all wiring is done using ratcheting style crimp connections, as available from Vintage Connections and others, for the reason you stated.
There is no higher need for reliability than that of the aviation industry.
BTW, very nice work on your wiring!


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[fantino]

540Nova- Thanks! Switching from a cheap automotive stripper/crimper combo to a ratcheting crimper was the most worthwhile ~$20 I think I've ever spent on a tool. Every crimp comes out looking clean and professional with very few bad joints so far. I never want to use anything else now!

Good to know on the crimps. What's the preferred method for wire splices? I've seen a lot of different approaches, both soldered and crimped, but have been unsure what the most reliable splice would be.

Cal - for marine are you referring to the wire where each individual strand is pre-tinned before winding? I know our shop uses that sort of wire for surface mount soldering on boards, it seems to make their lives a lot easier not having to tin the wire before soldering. I imagine it's more resistant to oxidation in harsh environments too? I'm just using raw copper strand with GXL insulation (I really like working with X-linked PE insulation over PVC), but I haven't seen it with the coated strands.

Know of any nice sheathing that doesn't fray/require closeout finishing like the expandable braided nylon stuff does? I like how it looks, but it's kind of a pain to use.

You make a good point about most of the wiring being thinner gauge wire, it should be pretty easy to keep most of the inputs discretely routed. I don't necessarily want to highlight the loom, I'm a sucker for completely tucked wiring jobs, but I think there will be a few areas on my bike where the wiring will be unavoidably conspicuous and would benefit from nice looking connectors or something that looks *intentional* instead of an afterthought.

[540nova]

I use aviation grade environmental splices. I don't have a photo right now, but a quick Google search should bring them up.

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[540nova]

Environmental splices

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[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Any recommendation for ratcheting crimper.  I have a standard one for car audio. 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sum-900399/overview/?cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-summit-racing

[fantino]

I picked up this ratcheting crimper on Amazon for insulated terminal connectors. It's very sturdy and has been serving me well with consistent crimps so far. If you want to spend $100 instead of $20 you can get one with interchangeable dies and do spark plug wires and flag terminals. I'd probably just buy another fixed jaw crimper if I needed to crimp something more specialized.

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-11477-Ratcheting-Terminal/dp/B01N43O0UJ/ref=sr_1_1?s=amazon-devices&ie=UTF8&qid=1496441012&sr=8-1&keywords=Titan%2Bratcheting%2Bcrimper&th=1

I also picked up this automatic wire stripper which is a little lightweight and plasticy in build, but has been much more effective than the pivoting type with fixed gauge dies.

https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-20011-Automatic-Stripper/dp/B01018CX46/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1496441524&sr=8-5&keywords=automatic+wire+stripping+tool

[fantino]

What's the verdict on hot 500 gearing? I've found lots of suggestions on stock 550 gearing, but not much on good combos for a hot street 500.

I'm aiming to run a 16t front sprocket for the extra chain clearance. I don't plan to do much extended freeway riding, so higher revs don't bother me much. Is 16/35 too aggressive for a more high strung motor?

[RAFster122s]

The ratcheting crimpers with the properly sized wire and connector yields a mechanical connection but also a gas-tight joint of the wire to the metal. It is air tight and liquid tight...so, it is a longer lasting joint and a far better connection to the connector in a vibration prone environment.  As Nova has said, it is a better solution than soldering or tinning the connectors in automotive/transportation applications.  Our motorcycles probably have greater vibration than most cars.

Would not a good application of dielectric grease to the connectors block any oxidation of a more "open" connector design?  Hitting the connector after assembled with a shot of pure silicone can block any oxidation. It will collect some dust but it will block water/moisture preventing the oxidation process.  If the coating is compromised allowing water in then any dust yields a moisture absorbing condition ripe for rust as moisture, dirt retaining the moisture and heat are key ingredients creating rust with steel parts and will even oxidize zinc protective coatings used on connectors not silver or gold plated.
FWIW.

David

Isn't the m-button a bit temperamental re: EM interference?

I don't think any of those connectors are necessary, but 80% of the work on this bike wasn't necessary either, haha.

For reference, my current wiring project I'm mostly just using spade and ring terminals. Everything is crimped with a quality crimper, labelled, sheathed with braided sleeving and sealed with melt liner. I'm pretty sure my harness will outlast most of the rest of the vehicle. It looks clean and tidy, but it doesn't really stand out. I also wish it were possible to easily disassemble some of the sub-looms at their main junctions quickly and easily for access to some tighter areas in the engine and under the dash. Not as big of a concern on the bike I suppose, but it's a nice option.



The sparkies at work all advised against tinning stranded copper wire for crimped connections. They claimed it reduces fatigue life of the joint due to strain from the increased joint rigidity. I'm not terribly experienced with the finer details of electrical, so I don't know to what extent that may be true.

As a licensed A&P Lead Aircraft Mechanic for Continental/United Airlines, I can tell you that standard practice in aviation is to NOT use soldered connections, or tin the end of wires prior to crimping. 99% of all wiring is done using ratcheting style crimp connections, as available from Vintage Connections and others, for the reason you stated.
There is no higher need for reliability than that of the aviation industry.
BTW, very nice work on your wiring!


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[540nova]

You have to be careful with most  types  of silicone / RTV, as it promotes corrosion. I have a tube of RTV which IS safe for electrical use, but don't recall the designation at  the top of my head. I can check, if anyone's interested.

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