Author Topic: Cb550 camshaft install alignment (Read 8683 times)

separatist · « **on:** July 29, 2016, 05:55:18 PM »

I have the crankshaft aligned with T 1-4 at the mark but the book's drawing of camshaft angle doesn't jive with what I'm seeing except for cam lobe angle. Is this correct, or should the alignment notch be on the right side (in which case lobe angle in the book would be wrong). Thx folks.

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alacrity · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:00:33 PM »

hi. it's 180 off.
:-)
you seem to be looking at it from the #4 side...
Work from the #1 side... the "left" side from rider's point of view.

It's a little confusing the cb500 manual (this is the ONLY manual there is for the engine guts on the cb550 - download and use it if you haven't and also get all the add-ons and updates).

Here's a pic from it. look closely. See the notch at the end of the cam and the side of the engine it's on?

separatist · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:15:13 PM »

Really? So this picture in the manual is just incorrect w/ regard to lobe angle?

separatist · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:23:26 PM »

But the side we're looking at in alacrity's picture is not the side with the alignment notch, right? The alignment notch is on the right side, the side with the tach drive on the camshaft...?

alacrity · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:36:51 PM »

Yes, I feel your pain... the graphic you just posted appears immediately before the pic I posted from the manual... and in the actual photo you can clearly see the notch and which side of the engine it is on... There is only one notch on one end of the camshaft.

This will help: Install the cam chain sprocket (don't screw it on just put it on READY to be screwed on). Slide the camshaft through the cam chain as if ready to put it on, ... now you will see it can't be assembled backwards...

separatist · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:40:10 PM »

You must have the eyes of a condor to see a notch in your picture - lol. Lemme get back to the engine and post a couple more pics.

separatist · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2016, 06:43:56 PM »

Okay, here's where I am. Good?

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alacrity · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2016, 07:18:58 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on July 29, 2016, 07:04:55 PM

It's fine in either orientation as long as the alignment notch is parallel to the head, which direction it points doesn't matter.

Yes CalJ that's TECHNICALLY correct.. as we know... But we're trying to help his process and understanding here. Why add confusion to someone's process when they are already confused, and I just confused myself with how I wrote that. ;-)

ALSO It mattered enough for the Japanese engineers to make a point of it in the book. They weren't the sort of people to say, "Hey dudes, this manual seems a little light, let's add a few extra unnecessary things to fatten it up, shall we?"

So - how about if he just follows the process as they thought it should go, and then he will have the calm mental comfort of knowing it's RIGHT by the book (even though when it's assembled, it will still work)...

BUT I think the real problem that has to be addressed immediately isn't the question of the notch pointing to 3:00 (correctly) or 9:00 (incorrectly but still works). It's the question of the cam laying in there reversed...

jonda500 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2016, 07:34:06 PM »

Quote from: separatist on July 29, 2016, 05:55:18 PM

I have the crankshaft aligned with T 1-4 at the mark but the book's drawing of camshaft angle doesn't jive with what I'm seeing except for cam lobe angle. Is this correct, or should the alignment notch be on the right side (in which case lobe angle in the book would be wrong). Thx folks.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

You have it absolutely correct, as long as the camshaft notch is parallel to the head (3 o'clock or 9 o'clock) and the T 1.4 is lined up, you are good to go! (It's obvious if the shaft is in the wrong way as the tacho drive will be on the wrong side.)
John

BomberMann650 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2016, 07:52:29 PM »

Did my cam swap and timing chain instal from the points side of the motor. Dunno why anyone would want to go round and round to check the cam index mark on the generator side

separatist · « **Reply #10 on:** July 29, 2016, 07:53:09 PM »

Thanks all! Very helpful.

That 70s Bike · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2016, 09:58:26 PM »

The lobe orientation in #2 of Fig 85 is misleading

(The orientation is correct when the notch is at 9 o-clock position)
When the cam notch is at the 3 (or 9) o-clock position, pistons 1 & 4 are both up at (TDC) Top Dead Center, but one is between the compression/power stroke, the other is between the exhaust/intake stroke (as determined by the camshaft)

There is a rule in technical plans/drawings;
When there are inconsistency's then: "text governs scale". (yes, there are text typo's in manuals also)
Fig. 85's three (text) labels are about aligning the cam notch, with the head surface & 1-4 Timing mark, all viewed from the same side, there's no text about "follow the artists depiction of cam lobe orientation".

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2016, 06:36:29 AM »

+1 on the notch being at 3:00 or 9:00. Doesn't matter. If you're at 1-4 TDC, with the cam aiming at 3:00 (with the chain connected) and you spin the crank 360°, the notch on the cam will then point to 9:00, because the cam spins half of what the crank does.

alacrity · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2016, 04:26:34 PM »

yes yes yes... it's true 3 or 9 o'clock...we know this from practice... but then: why did HONDA specify 3 o'clock?

alacrity · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2016, 04:27:43 PM »

Quote from: That 70s Bike on July 29, 2016, 09:58:26 PM

The lobe orientation in #2 of Fig 85 is misleading (The orientation is correct when the notch is at 9 o-clock position)
When the cam notch is at the 3 (or 9) o-clock position, pistons 1 & 4 are both up at (TDC) Top Dead Center, but one is between the compression/power stroke, the other is between the exhaust/intake stroke (as determined by the camshaft)

There is a rule in technical plans/drawings;
When there are inconsistency's then: "text governs scale". (yes, there are text typo's in manuals also)
Fig. 85's three (text) labels are about aligning the cam notch, with the head surface & 1-4 Timing mark, all viewed from the same side, there's no text about "follow the artists depiction of cam lobe orientation".

EXCELLENT description right there bro

alacrity · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2016, 04:42:37 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on July 30, 2016, 04:29:23 PM

Quote from: alacrity on July 30, 2016, 04:26:34 PM
yes yes yes... it's true 3 or 9 o'clock...we know this from practice... but then: why did HONDA specify 3 o'clock?
Arbitrary other than it comes before 9:00.

I think maybe you are guessing? I know a little about the corporate culture at brand H, and "arbitrary" isn't how I would describe anything they do. I think maybe WE are missing something here.

BomberMann650 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2016, 09:46:20 PM »

Wouldn't reason be that 9 oclock corresponds with cyl 2/3?

That 70s Bike · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2016, 10:01:10 PM »

cam rotates 180 degrees for every 360 degrees of crank rotation, so cam notch positions 3 & 9 o'clock match pistons 1 & 4 TDC (although valve-wise, 1 & 4 are right between 2 different "strokes")
Therefore cam notch positions 6 & 12 o'clock should match pistons 2 & 3 TDC (valve-wise, 2 & 3 are between 2 different "strokes")

BomberMann650 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2016, 10:53:55 PM »

Oh thanks 70'sbike

Now I know better

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 30, 2016, 11:04:45 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on July 30, 2016, 04:29:23 PM

Quote from: alacrity on July 30, 2016, 04:26:34 PM
yes yes yes... it's true 3 or 9 o'clock...we know this from practice... but then: why did HONDA specify 3 o'clock?
Arbitrary other than it comes before 9:00.

yep, this is how a 4 stroke engine works, Honda assumed mechanics would know this.

Do some searches, read a little, absolutely no reason for this topic to come up again.

alacrity · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2016, 01:04:57 PM »

Sean ... Are you addressing me? You quoted me. But it seems your comment should be aimed that OP instead? (Do research - never need to discuss this again, etc). Also your comment doesn't address the question I actually posed that you quoted... It obfuscates.

If the assumption is all mechanics would understand the cam rotation speed vs that of the crank, and that all mechanics would be able to consider this with how a 4stroke engine works, then why wouldn't they be more "accurate" in their instructions and say something like "position the cam at either 3 or 9 o'clock -- not are acceptable so long as the cam end notch lines up with the... Etc"? I can't think of another place in the manual (top of my head) where a mechanic has an either/or choice with identical results, and the manual specifies one over the other very specifically. And this makes me, just a humble guy and not an engineer, wonder why.

BomberMann650 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2016, 03:19:38 PM »

I had assumed the crank and cam turned at a 1:1 ratio.

That's why I never claim to be much more than a techie.

Take stuff out, Put stuff in, turn the bolts, the honda hokey pokey.

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2016, 06:32:41 PM »

alacrity, I was agreeing with you and pointing out that the manual kinda glosses over this topic... and that this has been discussed at great controversial length in several threads on this forum already, although it's probably been a few years since the subject came up. No offense intended, sorry for any misunderstandings.

jonda500 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 31, 2016, 08:27:51 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on July 30, 2016, 04:29:23 PM

Quote from: alacrity on July 30, 2016, 04:26:34 PM
yes yes yes... it's true 3 or 9 o'clock...we know this from practice... but then: why did HONDA specify 3 o'clock?
Arbitrary other than it comes before 9:00.

+1 completely arbitrary!
You could also line up the T 2.3 mark and position the notch at either 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock and it would end up being EXACTLY the same!
John

alacrity · « **Reply #24 on:** August 01, 2016, 12:44:03 AM »

Quote from: seanbarney41 on July 31, 2016, 06:32:41 PM

alacrity, I was agreeing with you and pointing out that the manual kinda glosses over this topic... and that this has been discussed at great controversial length in several threads on this forum already, although it's probably been a few years since the subject came up. No offense intended, sorry for any misunderstandings.

Thanks!
And I am absolutely capable of being an idiot... Or at least, incorrect. Like in this case I was working from what's left of my memory...
I went back and read the manual which I should have done in the first place.
It SHOWS the cam notch at 3:00, but in the graphic and text it SAYS it (just) needs to be aligned with the head flange surface. In the graphic there is a horizontal line going all the way across and one can easily (and correctly) infer that they wanted us to know that 3:00 or 9:00 is ok for this.

b1jackson · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:17:58 AM »

Hi guys. First time pulling out the cam and just double checking how far off this 3 o'clock position can you be. See pic

That is the position with it at "T" for 1-4 cylinder. It almost like one more skip of the chain over a tooth would have got it there.

Or, will this be overcome when I set my static timing? On another note, I did have to slacken the valve adjusters to get the engine to turn over (only tried by hand!) otherwise it would lock up.

Yes, I have the manual. Just double checking before I button it back up.

Scott S · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2017, 10:32:35 AM »

That's too far off. It needs to be horizontal with the head.

b1jackson · « **Reply #27 on:** December 10, 2017, 11:28:54 AM »

Ok. Thanks. I was able to loosen everything off and give it one more turn through the sprocket. All lined up now.

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Author Topic: Cb550 camshaft install alignment (Read 8683 times)