Author Topic: TRIBSA  (Read 36099 times)

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Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2016, 02:07:43 AM »
More garage time. I seem to be getting surprisingly little flack from SWMBO, makes me wonder if she's playing around. Haven't got time to worry about it though, getting this engine back together is far more important ;D.

I spent some time cleaning the cases, running through all the threads with a tap, ensuring the oil-ways were clear, all the usual stuff.

'The Book' advises that you fit the bearings to the cases before fitting the crank, which may necessitate use of a hide mallet. Personally I don't like that idea, even if it is the way it's been done since time immemorial. Particularly with a ball-bearing, if you can avoid side-load and the potential for damage that clouting a crankshaft spindle through an unsupported inner race may bring, then avoid it you should.

The drive-side bearing had come off cleanly on disassembly, and it's in good condition. I fitted it to the crank...



Before heating the case...



And dropping the whole assembly in...



The timing side main bearing, which I had to destroy to split the cases, is/was a one-piece roller bearing that is, of course, now obsolete. That's not to say it's not available, but the only ones I found for sale were the price of an ocean-going yacht. :-X

I spoke to one of the more established Triumph parts suppliers over here, who suggested two options - replace with a normal ball bearing, in which case you would have to mess about with shims to ensure the end float is taken up without placing side-load on the bearing, or use a two-piece roller bearing as fitted to later bikes. The ball bearing was the cheapest, the two-piece roller considerably more expensive but not nearly as pricey as the original type. So I went with the roller.

Out with the blowtorch again to fit the outer race. New circlip, cams in place....



The cams are the original ones. I think they've been replaced in recent times, there's nothing wrong with them and I couldn't justify swapping them for race cams - after all, I won't be racing it ::).

Inner race fitted to crankshaft. I used bearing-fit on this one, it drifted on a little too easy for my liking.



Before the cases go together, you need to prime the crankshaft and ensure you have oil seeping through the big-end bearings...



Then all that was left to do was fit the spring in the inlet breather valve on the drive-side (which had been missing!), liberally coat the bearing in assembly lube, and marry the cases together...





Does life get any more exciting than this?  8) 8) 8)

Now, I wonder if the wife will still recognise me when I go back in ;D
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2016, 02:35:40 AM »
Looking good Martin, and that 2 piece roller bearing is interesting, I don't think I've ever seen one before. I wonder how it will compare to a one piece bearing, tolerance-wise? Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2016, 03:27:46 AM »
i like those type of roller bearing and use them allot . the ball bearing on the other side anchors the crank and the roller allows for expansion and contraction due to heat , it also makes it easier to take the cases apart . they have a large contact patch and are very strong , i use the very expensive ones with the brass cage on customers bikes for extra insurance .

the good news is after a few of those beers if the old woman is still around she will look much more attractive !

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2016, 03:46:30 AM »
i like those type of roller bearing and use them allot . the ball bearing on the other side anchors the crank and the roller allows for expansion and contraction due to heat , it also makes it easier to take the cases apart . they have a large contact patch and are very strong , i use the very expensive ones with the brass cage on customers bikes for extra insurance .

the good news is after a few of those beers if the old woman is still around she will look much more attractive !

Not as attractive as a TRIBSA mate! ;D

This being the first Triumph engine I've worked on, I am somewhat in the hands of 'those that know'. The parts supplier I've been using is the longest established in the UK (TMS) and it was them that sent me the bearing. I queried it when it came, as I was expecting a one-piece. They told me you can't get them anymore, I told them I'd seen them on the internet but they were very expensive. 'Get a bloody internet one then!' was his reply before banging the phone down on me :-\.

So I'm fast learning that these Triumph folk can be a cliquey lot who don't suffer fools easily - their definition of a fool being anyone who asks a civil question! I didn't bother getting back to him to give him a gobful, even though I felt like it, as at the end of the day he suplies quality stuff at reasonable rates and I'll likely need him again. Perhaps I'll have a rant in the pissed off thread?

Anyway, clearly it all worked out ok in the end, everything turns freely and whilst it hadn't crossed my mind before the point you make about allowing for expansion makes a lot of sense.

Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2016, 03:52:28 AM »
No offence to your missus Martin, but if she's not as attractive as a TriBSA, I wouldn't be too worried about her getting some behind your back.......... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2016, 04:53:38 AM »
I jest Terry (just in case she sees this!)

Seriously though, my mrs is a beautiful woman, makes me feel like a million dollars whenever I go out with her, she's given me three lovely kids and I wouldn't be without her.

Plus she lets me play with motorbikes :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2016, 06:23:45 AM »
creep

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2016, 07:16:22 AM »
Found an interesting quote from the genuine workshop manual -

'If the timing gears are noisy, it is futile to purchase an odd gear to overcome this fault. A far better plan is to consult your Triumph dealer who will be able to remedy this trouble by selective assembly of gears from his stocks'

Well, mine may not have been noisy but I needed a new one all the same. If you've been following this, you'll remember that the intermediate wheel had a broken tooth and needed to be replaced. I consulted my Triumph dealer as per the above advice. Of course, that advice may well have held true in 1953 but it sure as hell doesn't now. It came as no surprise to find those gears are now unobtanium.

'Don't worry', said the man in the know. 'We can supply a later intermediate gear. It's thicker than your old one, but it will work with your engine'.

The new gear came and when fitted meshed nicely with the cam wheels. Problem was, due to the thicker profile the crankshaft pinion nut wouldn't fit due to it fouling the gear. In this pic you can see how proud it is...



I don't want this project stalling for months while I trawl around looking for a 'good' used intermediate wheel. So next I had to get the nut to fit. I worked out that if I reduced it down to the same size as the camwheel nuts it would just give enough clearance to fit. I bolted a camwheel nut and the crankshaft nut together and filed it down...





Fitted, Locktited and torqued to 45 lb/in (as per the book)...



Not my finest hour, wasn't totally happy about doing this but I've since been reassured it will be fine. It doesn't carry much load, it's tight and it's not going anywhere. Motor is now back on the engine stand that Terry is so jealous of  ;D...



I need to turn my attention to the barrels and pistons now, can't fit the mag without being able to find TDC.

 :)

Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2016, 07:50:41 AM »
it will be fine martin , you have plenty of nut left to handle the very little side loading it will have to take .

if you are going to do more of this stuff i would recommend you buy a small lathe , they save you hours .

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2016, 03:02:31 PM »
Thanks Simon, I know sometimes you have to make compromises on these old bikes when needs must, just wasn't too sure.

A lathe? If only I had room. I've been thinking about getting one for years. Sod it, I'm going to get one.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2016, 03:59:05 PM »
are you going to the stafford show next month martin?

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2016, 04:09:06 PM »
It's a possibility, but it's also a three hour drive and I know if I do it my back will hate me for at least a week afterwards. Not ruling it out yet though, I've been a couple of times and it's definitely the best for bits and stocking up.

Got the Copdock show next weekend, it gets bigger year on year and hoping to pick up a few parts there too.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2016, 05:58:59 PM »
Good work Martin, I was gonna say that if you had a lathe you could have trimmed that gear down, but Simon beat me to it. I've got a massive Chinese lathe with a 3 foot bed, but I always wanted an old Myford Super 7 lathe, which would be ideal for a small workshop, and being as you're in Britain, there are probably more Myford Super 7's available than there are old Pommy bikes! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2016, 12:06:47 AM »
i always fancied a super seven as well , i have a myford ml7 which is well better than my very limited machining skills and as terry said they are so common over here
you cant spit without hitting one .

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2016, 01:39:53 AM »
i always fancied a super seven as well , i have a myford ml7 which is well better than my very limited machining skills and as terry said they are so common over here
you cant spit without hitting one .

It hurts me to read that Simon, I nearly had my hands on a Super 7 maybe 30 years ago, in almost unused condition, but missed out. (dodgy "sale by tender", rigged between the auctioneer and another interested party) I'm not bitter though, not fcuking much.......... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2016, 11:01:58 PM »
Good work Martin, I was gonna say that if you had a lathe you could have trimmed that gear down, but Simon beat me to it. I've got a massive Chinese lathe with a 3 foot bed, but I always wanted an old Myford Super 7 lathe, which would be ideal for a small workshop, and being as you're in Britain, there are probably more Myford Super 7's available than there are old Pommy bikes! Cheers, Terry. ;D

Gosh, sorry men, temporary laptop malfunction (daughter stole it!).

And there was me thinking Simon had meant I could have made a new nut (Pommie idiot - I'll say it before you do ;D)

BTW, bumped into the old mate I bought the bike from yesterday and was showing him some photos of engine carnage. 'It wasn't like that when I sold it to you' he said, as if I had been accusing him of seizing it up? Which I wasn't, but seeing as he was so defensive I'm now wondering if he did, or if he didn't probably had a good idea of what I might find anyway.

Ah, well no worries. I guess broken engagements can make you bitter  ;D
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:30:00 PM by martin99 »
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2016, 12:00:57 AM »
You're not wrong Martin, I've got a mate here who has a good sized stash of CB750 parts, he bought a lot of stuff from me, but rarely (if ever) sold me anything. Anyway, his live in girlfriend of 17 years had it off with his (now ex, not surprisingly) best friend, and to further rub salt into the wound she also demanded half of everything he owned, which entailed him giving her around $300,000 so he could keep his house and bikes etc.

Now that his personal fortune has taken a battering, he's more than happy to sell me some stuff. I think he's realised that there's not much point hanging on to all that stuff as he'll never get around to using it all, and as he's only a year or two off retirement age, he can use the money more than he could a heap of bike parts. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2016, 02:29:02 PM »
The barrels before disassembly...



The tappet blocks are an interference fit. A special bolt with a turned end screws through the cylinder base and locates in a hole in the block to ensure it is positioned correctly. These bolts are readily available and cost pennies. Our intrepid hero must have been on a budget because he decided to make his own. Didn't make a bad job of the inlet side...



But on the exhaust side he must have broken his file...



Here you see where the bolt has not had the desired effect of aligning the tappet block correctly...



So I think the story may have told itself. The misaligned block meant the tappets were exerting force on the tappet block 'ear', which eventually broke away and went on a rollercoaster ride around the crank before finding it's way up the cylinder bore...



Onto the head...



The inlet manifold should be held by four studs. Two of the studs on this one have gone missing along the way and have been replaced by bolts. Set of studs added to the shopping list...



All of the valve spring sets were coil bound - that is, the inner springs were tight in the outers. It took quite a bit of effort to separate them...



Oddly, all of the outer springs are within free length specs. All of the inner springs are at least 2mm under. The shopping list is expanding.

Valves are a good fit, they have acceptable play in the guides and therefore the guides do not need replacing (at last some luck!). But... both guides on the left side, the same side as the piston damage, were not seated properly in the head...





I'd be interested to hear the thoughts from the collective as to why this is. I'm thinking two possible reasons, a) they were never fitted properly in the first place and it is just a coincidence that they are both on the damaged side, or b) the head got so hot that they became loose and vibrated up from their seats.

Either way, they're certainly not loose now. I had to heat the head up in the ol' lady's oven before tapping them back into place with a double-diameter drift...



Both inlet seats are pocketed, but I've seen much worse. I've got some valve-cutting tools that I'll use to tidy them up before lapping the valves back in...





Those marks in the combustion chambers by the way aren't scratches - they're bloody deep gouges where some fck-wit has been a bit over-eager decoking the head. Not much I can do about it I don't think, it is what it is...



Local autojumble coming up on Sunday - hoping to buy some bits so I can move this along. If not, I'll be contacting the Triumph stealer on Monday.

 :)





Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline grcamna2

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2016, 04:25:00 PM »
Nice work Martin,I hope you find the parts you want on Sun.  ;)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2016, 04:30:37 PM »
Nice work Martin,I hope you find the parts you want on Sun.  ;)

Thanks. I'm optimistic, usually loads of Brit stuff there, fingers crossed :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Stev-o

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2016, 04:51:13 AM »
I hate seeing motors fukced up bu PO's.  Looks like you got a handle on though...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2016, 06:50:51 AM »
I hate seeing motors fukced up bu PO's.  Looks like you got a handle on though...

Me too, but at 63yrs old I guess the odds of not finding anything were a bit slim  ;D
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2016, 10:13:13 AM »
i didnt think you were only 63 martin , and who exactly described you as slim ?

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2016, 12:17:24 PM »
i didnt think you were only 63 martin , and who exactly described you as slim ?

Same piano-tuner who said you were good looking I reckon Simon ;D
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2016, 01:24:16 PM »
no one has ever said that martin !