Author Topic: TRIBSA  (Read 35918 times)

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Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2016, 11:09:48 AM »
bugger , looks like you will have to take the bearing cage apart  . once the cage is gone you should be able to move all the bearings to one side and sneak it out that way

Offline Powderman

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2016, 10:49:40 PM »
More progress this evening :)

Removed the magneto and crank pinion. The manual calls for a special (and expensive) tool to remove the pinion, but with some very careful prying I managed to get it off. It's not on a taper, so the only thing that would make it tight is crud. I'm pretty convinced now that this has been opened up before, so it hasn't had time (or enough use) to be a problem.

The removal of the camwheels also calls for a special tool, but the cases can be separated without removing them. I found that once the drive side cover was removed, I was able to drift out the camshafts with a brass drift, at the same time liberating the camwheels without damaging them.


The inlet cam holds the breather mechanism, which should include a spring. The spring is not there. I am not surprised.

This is just before I removed the cases from my stand to split them..



Drive side parted easily. The timing side however is proving difficult. The crank is stuck solid in the inner race of the bearing. I've tried and tried to shift it, but it won't budge :(. I've hit it, heated it, WD40'd it, run lots of cycles and combinations of all such methods, and still it doesn't want to know. I'm afraid to whack it any harder for fear of damaging the case. I had been trying to tap it out, in the hope that the bearing had been replaced already. But now I'm resigning myself to having to destroy it.

It's currently raised up on blocks with about an inch gap between the crank and the bench, so when it does give it won't have far to go.





Any ideas? I'm thinking it's time to grind down the inner race so it can fall through the rollers, but if anyone's got a better idea I'd love to hear it.

This is the project that just keeps on giving! ;D

At TriumphRat.com we have a tool loaner program. Many of the tools needed for Triumphs are specialized and expensive. Most of them only get used once a decade, so those who have them have offered them to loan as long as you pay shipping and when you're done with them ship them back to the owner or have the next guy who needs them pay shipping from you to them. I have a full set now loaned from member upstateTrophy. Includes the gear pullers you need. Unfortunately you are in the UK and I'm in the states. But there are UK members who would do the same.

When I split my 70 cases the right side bearing stayed in the case and the left side stayed on the crank. The one on the crank could be slipped off by hand, not easily, but without heat. I sent the crank to the machine shop to have the journals polished. I got it back with the bearing still on it, or so I thought. I proceeded to put it in the case and glued the case halves back together. as soon as I started to assemble the timing side something just din't look right. That's when I realized the machine shop removed the bearing to polish then put it back on the WRONG SIDE and I didn't notice it. Had to split the cases again and swap the bearing and start over. FML. ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 10:56:20 PM by Powderman »

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2016, 12:37:22 AM »
The tool loan scheme sounds like a great idea. I expect we have something similar over here, luckily I haven't needed any so far.

Thanks for sharing that story. It never occurred to me that the bearings could be swapped onto the wrong ends of the crank by mistake. The drive bearing has come away attached to the crank on this one too. Can't tell yet if the crank will need any work, but I'll be fitting my own bearings regardless. I don't think I'll make a mistake - I've been staring at this one long enough to know which end it should fit on! ;D
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Powderman

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2016, 07:52:44 PM »
On the 70 model, as are other models in that time frame, the crank main bearings are identical dimensions side to side.

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2016, 11:38:25 AM »
Well, that was fun - not!

Sparks. You know you must be doing a good job if you've got sparks.









Interlude - I know of a certain Texan and an Aussie that might appreciate this one...





Here you can see the circlip that was stopping it coming out...





Next job is removing the inner race from the crank, much easier now it's apart. Then it's the rods, followed by the notorious sludgetrap.
 :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Stev-o

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2016, 11:58:01 AM »
Bump  Bump ...for a great build!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2016, 03:08:20 PM »
Bump  Bump ...for a great build!

Thought that might get your attention! ;D
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2016, 11:20:32 PM »
Trying to keep the momentum going here. Not easy when you're juggling bike time with work and family life. For some inexplicable reason my good lady doesn't seem to share my priorities ;D

It didn't occur to me when I removed it, but according to the engine number and corresponding parts list this should have a two-piece crank. Originally the rod-ends were white-metalled, with no replaceable shells, meaning if they were too worn they'd need to be scrapped. I guess Triumph didn't realise that all these years later their bikes would still be in demand.

Doing a little research, I've read that one fix was to have the original rods machined to take shells, and of course to have the crank reground. The other fix was to fit a one-piece crank and rods, with replaceable shells, from a later model. It would appear that I have the latter, providing confirmation that this has received extensive attention in a previous life and adding to it's history.

As I mentioned before, there is no discernible play on either journal which is good news, as the shells are already at .020" undersize.



The shells are dull, but not scored. Likewise the journals are nice and clean with no signs of wear that I need to worry about.









Nice to have some luck! Not sure about whether to replace the shells - I'm thinking that while I'm in there I might as well. What do you think?

 :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2016, 10:10:25 AM »
be stupid not to

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 11:28:27 AM »
As succinctly put as ever Simon! You're absolutely right of course, I've put them on the shopping list.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2016, 02:07:35 AM »
Having now spoken to someone who actually knows about these things (always a good idea if you don't know what you're doing ;D) I have a correction to make.

I was correct in saying a fix for worn white-metalled rods was to machine them to take shells, but appear to have simplified things a little by saying the crank could just be swapped for a later one. This would also necessitate the use of the engine cases, which differ from the earlier ones to take larger diameter main bearings. So when I rang my mate, his first question was 'is it a small bearing engine or large bearing engine?'. The way to identify them, without taking them apart, is that the large bearing (therefore the one with replaceable shells) case has a bulbous bit under the timing cover, which is in fact the beefier housing for the beefier bearing.

Kevin agreed with me that my engine should be a '53 according to it's number, but the bottom end denotes it as later than that. 'Take no notice of the numbers' he says, just make sure when you're ordering parts you speak to someone who knows their stuff.'

I went on to put several queries to him, which I'm recording here because a) some of you may find it vaguely interesting and b) I'm bound to forget.

Cams - currently 3325. They've got barely any signs of wear on them, but according to Kevin will make the engine a 'bit flat'. '3134s are the Holy Grail' he said. 'At the very least, use a 3134 on the inlet'.

Cam followers - 'R' ones are preferable. 'R' denotes 'race', and will be stamped on the side of the follower.

Pistons - beware! Hepolite pistons are now produced in China. The rings are made of chocolate. If you're offered 'genuine Hepolite' pistons, walk away. Kevin is also aware of spurious rings coming from Italy, and says that some manufacturers are machining their pistons with shallower ring grooves so that only their rings can be used. Kevin is now re-machining pistons provided by customers, so that proper and trusted ringsets can be used with them. In any event, he says, I should forget the idea of replacing one piston as the ones I have are low compression, much better to have high compression ones.

So it would seem, if I want best performance, I have probably just tripled my estimate of parts needed, just to get the bottom end back together. Of course, I could just continue with the original plan but then Kevin's description of a 'flat, low compression engine' will haunt me for eternity and I will be forever regretting not doing it 'properly' in the first place. Next job is to sit down and price up the parts properly - reality check imminent!

BTW, Kevin is married to the wife's cousin and has run a Triumph restoration business for many years. He was very helpful when I restored my Norton. He doesn't provide services cheaply, not even for family, but his advice is free - he can't help himself, he lives and breathes Triumph. I will still be doing everything myself on this bike, but it's great to have such a knowledgeable bloke to fall back on should I have any questions. Here's a link to Kevin's website -

http://www.heritageclassicmotorcycles.co.uk/

 :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2016, 04:09:59 PM »
Well, tonight I thought I'd tackle the sludge trap. Been building myself up for it for a day or two, I haven't done many of these and they can be a real pain.

I needn't have worried. As with everything else I've found with this engine so far, there are tell-tale signs that I'm not the first to take it apart. Now you could say I'm lucky, the last person to lay a spanner on this was obviously trying to do a thorough job - but once again, I'm relieved to have revisited everything he did.

Not sure what he was doing here...



The plug came out way too easy, you don't want one of these unwinding itself...





Likewise the crank bolt was barely nipped up :o



The tube gave up it's hold after I wound a bolt in to it and gave it a few taps under the bolt head...



Almost as clean as a whistle. When I poked my finger in it, the residue had fine metallic particles in it,which I assume was from the damaged tappet block - so the trap was doing it's job :)



I've ordered all the parts I need to put these cases back together, including a new tube and plug. I could re-use these, but I've gone for an Allen-headed plug like Powderman used on his unit motor - and I'll aim to get it nice and tight this time!

 :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2016, 04:27:22 PM »
Well, I had a rather expensive box of tricks delivered to my house the other day...



Now I have all the parts I need to build the bottom end back up again. First though, I asked a friend to have a look at the damaged timing side crankcase. Five minutes later, he'd welded it up for me. Before...



After...



I ground the weld flat and then had to figure a way of re-instating the threaded hole at the right angle (straight ;D). I found a piece of 10mm steel plate and drilled a hole the same size as the tapping drill, clamped it to the case and used it as my guide...



Sorted. Tapped a new thread...



and tidied it up...



With that done, time to take care of the crank. New sludge trap/tube fitted, and replaced old plug with an Allen key type. It's bloody tight, much tighter than the one that came out, and it's peened in four places. Shouldn't need removing for a hundred thousand miles or so I reckon  ;D



New shells fitted to the rods, which are also treated to new nuts and bolts...



And the crank is done and ready to go back in...



 :)




Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline 540nova

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2016, 06:24:12 PM »
Wow, awesome repair job!


1974 CB450, 2006 CBR1000RR

Offline Stev-o

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2016, 07:59:30 PM »
Wow, awesome repair job!


+1!  and the rods look better than new...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2016, 09:53:15 PM »
proper job martin , i like the idea of using the steel as a drill guide, if you dont mind im going to pinch that for future use .

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2016, 04:40:30 PM »
Wow, awesome repair job!


1974 CB450, 2006 CBR1000RR

Thanks mate, I couldn't leave it like that even if the other bloke did.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2016, 04:51:37 PM »
proper job martin , i like the idea of using the steel as a drill guide, if you dont mind im going to pinch that for future use .

Thanks Simon. I should have mentioned how I found the centre - I bolted the timing cover on and used a scriber to mark where the centrepunch needed to be.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 11:34:49 PM by martin99 »
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2016, 04:56:32 PM »
Wow, awesome repair job!


+1!  and the rods look better than new...

Cheers Steve. Those rods haven't seen much service, that's for sure. The small ends don't have any play in them, and I only replaced the shells like for like as the old ones had lost their bling!
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2016, 02:55:39 AM »
good job. well done .

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2016, 03:10:52 AM »
Ha ha, how did I miss this thread Martin? Geez mate, after all this you can't possibly even think about taking the piss out of me for buying a Harley, ever!

But anyway, well done mate, it looks like a nice little bike, and you've done a great job fixing it. At least you can blame someone else for buggering your engine, my Rocket III's output shaft bearing exploded after only 5000 miles from new as a result of a clod installing it back to front, in the factory!

Keep that neat looking engine stand and any special tools you've made, if you intend to regularly ride it, you'll need them, often........... ;D 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline martin99

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2016, 04:20:03 PM »
Ha ha, how did I miss this thread Martin? Geez mate, after all this you can't possibly even think about taking the piss out of me for buying a Harley, ever!

But anyway, well done mate, it looks like a nice little bike, and you've done a great job fixing it. At least you can blame someone else for buggering your engine, my Rocket III's output shaft bearing exploded after only 5000 miles from new as a result of a clod installing it back to front, in the factory!

Keep that neat looking engine stand and any special tools you've made, if you intend to regularly ride it, you'll need them, often........... ;D

Ha ha, thanks Terry, praise indeed!

Seems like we've got more in common than first meets the eye - we both like a challenge, and we're both suckers for lost causes!  ;D

BTW, this is a picture of a Harley sidling up to my Norton at the weekend, ahead of a grueling 60 mile ride.



 I didn't see him at the finish, I guess he must have broken down.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 04:56:28 PM by martin99 »
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 05:44:52 PM »
Ha ha, you would only have seen his dust mate! Old Nortons (or any old pommy oil distributors) are having a resurgence here in Oz, when I was selling my Laverda 750SF (talking about sh1tboxes) a bloke offered to swap his 850 Commando for it. It was a very clean restored bike, but I chickened out, they had a reputation for fragility that an ape like me would test to the inevitable conclusion.... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline simon#42

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2016, 02:06:36 AM »
for some reason a few people feel the need to list all the bikes they own or have owned after their posts . i strongly recommend that you dont do this terry as i
cant be bothered reeding a list of every bike ever made !  anyway i loved my 750sf

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: TRIBSA
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2016, 04:37:00 AM »
Good on you Simon, I loved them too until I bought one, and cried myself to sleep thinking about the 3CL I didn't buy, in favour of my bevel 900SS, which was arguably the worst bike ever built, but then again, I've never owned a Voshkod, so I could be wrong.........

I've been meaning to draw up a timeline of my life with every bike I've ever owned from my Yamaha Omaha scooter to my VTR1000, before my memory goes completely. Hmmnnn, I might do it tomorrow at work, that should fill in some time! ;D

« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 04:53:45 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)