Author Topic: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It  (Read 11113 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2016, 03:43:18 AM »
But isn't it difficult o find quality points and condensers these days?  I wouldnt know, did not buy points since 95 and that was different continent.

I am very happy with pamco in my bikes, reliable and zero maintenance.  I cling to the old as much as the other guy, but points are exception.  Points and fuel injection.  I retrofitted TBI in my jeep, replaced the craperator Carter BBD and never looked back.

To be fair, Carter BBD was a decent carburetor, it was the additional emission sihte that made it unreliable.
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2016, 04:04:37 AM »
Sooner or later I will be making the pickup-coil version of mine, which will be "all electronic" in a way. But, it will still have the revert-to-points-quickly feature, 'cuz I want it! Speaking as a lifelong electronics engineer and designer, points are usually more reliable than the too-quickly-designed electronic versions we sometimes see (in many things, not just ignitions) today. So, mine will not have electronics on the hot points plate (which was the demise of my built-in timing LED for this unit), but purely mechanical parts, once I get the temperature issues worked out - that's the tough part!

Old guys and old stuff rule!
:D :D ;)

The whole reason I love your ignition is because it doesn't replace any of the mechanical parts. I still have to get around to ordering one for my corvair, but I have to many projects right now.
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2016, 04:06:02 AM »
This is like asking why people like fake boobs. Idk, boobs are great, doesn't matter if they're fake or real. Same goes for ignitions. As long as it starts, I'm happy.
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2018 Indian Scout

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2016, 04:11:17 AM »
I find this topic funny, for the last 30 odd years, almost every motorcycle made has had an electronic ignition of some sort, its not like its new or anything.... 8)
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Offline PeWe

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2016, 06:55:01 AM »
If you tho think that setting the gap is tricky and time consuming....
Forget feeler gauge, do it with a dwell meter when engine idles arround 1200-1500 rpm.  This will make the setting much better and equal on 1-4 and 2-3.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 06:56:32 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
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Offline DennyK

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2016, 07:27:26 AM »
When I did my 1974 CB750 project, I went with Hondaman's ignition and also installed his fuse box; simply gaped the points and put on new condensers.  The engine restart went great and after 150 miles on the new engine the ignition is great; just need to ride more and get the carbs fully tuned.  Hondaman's ignition is easy to install and your not tearing out all the stock parts.  Besides it's a great value.

Offline PeWe

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2016, 09:32:09 AM »
Points work fine and is a nostalgic part of my CB750. I have no condensers with my Hondaman ignition. I'll might install them just for sure.
Yes ignition systems are like oil threads. Very interesting and needed.
Racing guys need electronic more I guess.. without mechanical advancer. Set an adv curve that suits them.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline BobbyR

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2016, 01:12:37 PM »
Having worked with points through my youth. I went electronic first extra dough I had. Rubbing blocks break, condensers fail and fuse the points. Nothing is fool proof. 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2016, 07:05:29 PM »
Points work fine and is a nostalgic part of my CB750. I have no condensers with my Hondaman ignition. I'll might install them just for sure.
Yes ignition systems are like oil threads. Very interesting and needed.
Racing guys need electronic more I guess.. without mechanical advancer. Set an adv curve that suits them.

I'll bet you find you like the difference the condensors add into it!
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline PeWe

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2016, 02:56:38 AM »
Points work fine and is a nostalgic part of my CB750. I have no condensers with my Hondaman ignition. I'll might install them just for sure.
Yes ignition systems are like oil threads. Very interesting and needed.
Racing guys need electronic more I guess.. without mechanical advancer. Set an adv curve that suits them.

I'll bet you find you like the difference the condensors add into it!
;)
Tightening the advancer springs might have an affect on it too?
I'll test with condensers (capacitors)

I have NOS TEC condensors shipped with th complete plate. PLUS a box with 10 NOS KOYO condensers that look like early ones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB500-CB550-CB750-Condensers-10pcs-30250-300-154-30250-300-005-/142076549647
I'll see if they will work. Capacitors might have short shelf life.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline strynboen

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2016, 10:58:01 AM »
i have just bayed a car vith points..and like it..
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline Don R

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2016, 11:03:24 AM »
 It would be boring if we all owned the exact same cb's.  He11 I just put lowering blocks back on one, whoda thunk it?
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2016, 11:16:28 AM »
Quote
I'll bet you find you like the difference the condensors add into it!
;)
The (continued) use of condensors at the breakerpoints in combination with a transistor ignition appears strange to me. Usually with such a module there's very little current left at the points. I was advised to disconnect my condensors when I installed my homebuilt transistor ignition.




« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:19:01 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2016, 02:30:26 PM »
Quote
I'll bet you find you like the difference the condensors add into it!
;)
The (continued) use of condensors at the breakerpoints in combination with a transistor ignition appears strange to me. Usually with such a module there's very little current left at the points. I was advised to disconnect my condensors when I installed my homebuilt transistor ignition.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Why is there any need for condensers at this point.
1968 Honda Z50
1977 Honda CB550K
2018 Indian Scout

Offline przjohn

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2016, 02:38:48 PM »
I find this topic funny, for the last 30 odd years, almost every motorcycle made has had an electronic ignition of some sort, its not like its new or anything.... 8)

+10000

I love the whole, " Points never stranded me just them darn confounded fancy electro gizmos has"
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2016, 04:55:08 PM »
I find this topic funny, for the last 30 odd years, almost every motorcycle made has had an electronic ignition of some sort, its not like its new or anything.... 8)

+10000

I love the whole, " Points never stranded me just them darn confounded fancy electro gizmos has"

The ONLY thing that drives me nuts about the electronic ign choices we have for our 750's is that it seems when they do start to die it's not always obvious and slowly quit putting you on a wild goose chase until it's so bad that it is obvious. When the dyna-s failed on a cb550 I had it had me going through it's entire electrical system before I was able to determine the dyna-s was the problem. On the other hand take an old GM HEI module, when those things quit they just plain curled up and died. You'd fire the car up and all would be just fine until you shut it off and tried firing it up again, there was no subtle misfires or dropping cyls every now and then, none of that BS, when an HEI module decided to quit  then it just plain quit. Now I admit that might not necessarily be a good thing but it sure did take a lot of guess work out of it. :)
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2016, 05:39:05 PM »
I too like the new cars/bikes with fuel injection and electronic ignition. Turn the key and they go. My problem is with after-market ignition. Frankly, I wouldn't trust it. And as has been pointed out, if it dies, you're screwed. Back in the day when my 750 was new I filed the points and re-timed it every few hundred miles. This was mainly due to pitting of the points. I found that the rubbing blocks only wore for a short time when they were new. After that, they seemed to get burnished and stop wearing. But the pitting continued. And so the timing ordeals continued. When I restored the bike a few years back, I installed Hondaman's box. Now I don't redo the timing after each trip - in fact I don't even check it anymore.
Years ago on CarTalk there was a puzzler to do with electronics not being on an engine. I don't remember the details but the crux was that the engine was on a boat and they can't afford to have touchy electronic ignitions on them so they use traditional point setup. Don't know if it's still true but that's how I feel. As a sign in the HP lab used to say: "If God had meant man to manipulate electrons, He wouldn't have made them so hard to see."
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2016, 04:37:04 AM »
I find this topic funny, for the last 30 odd years, almost every motorcycle made has had an electronic ignition of some sort, its not like its new or anything.... 8)

+10000

I love the whole, " Points never stranded me just them darn confounded fancy electro gizmos has"

The ONLY thing that drives me nuts about the electronic ign choices we have for our 750's is that it seems when they do start to die it's not always obvious and slowly quit putting you on a wild goose chase until it's so bad that it is obvious. When the dyna-s failed on a cb550 I had it had me going through it's entire electrical system before I was able to determine the dyna-s was the problem. On the other hand take an old GM HEI module, when those things quit they just plain curled up and died. You'd fire the car up and all would be just fine until you shut it off and tried firing it up again, there was no subtle misfires or dropping cyls every now and then, none of that BS, when an HEI module decided to quit  then it just plain quit. Now I admit that might not necessarily be a good thing but it sure did take a lot of guess work out of it. :)

If you mean the classic 4 point HEI, I am with you.  I have a spare in my Jeep, needed it once.  It was an upgrade from AMC/Motorcraft nightmare of an ignition, love the HEI.
Prokop
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: SOHC Four Electronic Ignition - I Don't Get It
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2016, 07:34:24 PM »
Quote
I'll bet you find you like the difference the condensors add into it!
;)
The (continued) use of condensors at the breakerpoints in combination with a transistor ignition appears strange to me. Usually with such a module there's very little current left at the points. I was advised to disconnect my condensors when I installed my homebuilt transistor ignition.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Why is there any need for condensers at this point.

The need for condensors in these type of Ignitions is not the "normal think" reason: it is to resolve the vagaries of a mechanical trigger driving [much] faster electronic switches. Here's what often happens: with enough miles (and neglect to the advancer) the points cam develops quite some slack between it and the middle post spindle (bearing). Then, when the points are first pried open, they tend to push the cam away from them, while the other set of points is just then trying to push the cam TOWARD the newly-opening ramp side. This can make the cam 'bounce' or jiggle a bit. With points alone, the cam is busy at that moment trying to bash open the pit that welded shut after the last spark cycle, and the slack is pushed back onto the spindle until enough ramp and force builds up to pop open the contacts (and make a tiny pit). Then you get one spark.

Enter the transistors: there is no arcing left, so the points do not weld shut: but the points cam is already worn and wiggly. So, when the cam comes to, say, the 1-4 set of points and starts to gently slide them open, the spring on the 2-3 side is still pushing the cam (and slack) toward the 1-4 side just then. This can (and blow 3000 RPM often does) cause the points to START to open, then the slack is pushed back by their spring as the 2-3 side is letting go, and the points momentarily close again. Here's the "rub": this first opening event triggers the [very] fast transistors to open and start the coil's magnetic collapse, only to close and [very] quickly snuff it out by switching the current fully back ON again until the cam slack is gone: then it finally opens 'for real' to make the spark. The problem: the coil is now caught in mid-field-collapse, so the spark is about 60% of a normal spark (or, as others know it, a "Dyna S spark...") from being OFF too short a time to recharge the field.

All of this is due to the mechanical parts, which were not designed specifically to interface tight tolerances to much faster electronic parts. So, what to do? If you leave the condensors in place, they slow down the actual "open" signal to the transistors by :
(100 ohms x 0.24uF) = 2.4 milliseconds
which is 8x as long as it takes the ramp to open the points at 2500 RPM, which is:
(5 degrees opening ramp/360 degrees) * (60 sec/min / 2500 Rev/min) = 0.3milliseconds opening event.
Thus, this condensor "smooths out" the mechanical irregularities of the cam itself by "holding the points closed" until they REALLY open. In practice, I have found that it delays the timing by about the width of the "F" mark on the advancer if you set up the timing on points, then plug in the box, and look at it again with the timing light. So, it provides a stronger spark below 3500 RPM, which can (and has, by me...) be directly measured with an oscilloscope clipped onto the sparkplug leads. It was fun to dig this out, way back in 2006 when this all started.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com