Topic: Do I need sealant for a cooper gasket?

[DaveBarbier]

The reason why I wanted to use a copper gasket was because of how well copper transfers heat compared to graphite. I live in Louisiana, a hot state mostly year round, and I wanted to find a way to keep my engine cooler through efficient heat transfer. I know there are oil cooler kits out there for my bike but I don't want to look at a radiator on my bike.

Is using a copper head gasket a known way to keep an engine cool? Sounds more theoretical than practical. How much cooler could it keep your motor?

Honda sold bikes to hot climates and they didn't use copper in the hot areas and those bikes didn't need oil coolers. Why would yours be different? Have you been plagued with overheating with this bike before the teardown?

I think you're trying to solve a non-issue. I'd open it up, toss in an OEM head gasket and be done with it.

[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: so all I have to do for annealing is to get them red hot and let them cool down? I can't imagine where to get copper washers locally but I did email a washer manufacture and asked them what their minimum quantity was for orders. That benefit is is one thingy I'm looking forward to. I really don't want to drain the oil since it has hardly been in there long enough to drain out.

bwaller: how long do you think a copper gasket would last if it was sealed up with an adhesive? Give or take a few years?

DaveBarbier: I have been thinking about giving up on the copper gaskets, but it's annoying how much I have invested in them. I say them because I had a copper base gasket made for the crankcase and cylinders. It didn't fit too well and I ended up messing it up trying to fit it. The cylinder head copper gasket seemed to fit like the graphite gasket. It is also slightly thinner then the OEM gasket. It is at .042 inches thick. Copper doesn't really cool the bike but it transfers heat better than graphite. It can reduce hot spots and allow the heat to be distributed easily throughout the engine. This would allow a more balanced temperature throughout the entire engine, rather than a high centralized temperature. I thought with better heat transfer and more effective air-cooling I would increase the longevity of my engine.


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[flybox1]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pieces-M8-8mm-Crush-Copper-Washers-/271906130752?hash=item3f4ede4b40:m:moFoU2WlCYXwZrmcyWhifCQ&vxp=mtr

[DaveBarbier]

DaveBarbier: I have been thinking about giving up on the copper gaskets, but it's annoying how much I have invested in them. I say them because I had a copper base gasket made for the crankcase and cylinders. It didn't fit too well and I ended up messing it up trying to fit it. The cylinder head copper gasket seemed to fit like the graphite gasket. It is also slightly thinner then the OEM gasket. It is at .042 inches thick. Copper doesn't really cool the bike but it transfers heat better than graphite. It can reduce hot spots and allow the heat to be distributed easily throughout the engine. This would allow a more balanced temperature throughout the entire engine, rather than a high centralized temperature. I thought with better heat transfer and more effective air-cooling I would increase the longevity of my engine.

Since your gasket is thinner than stock and it squishes with torque, any idea if you needed to shorten the dowel pins? When one decks a head and cylinders sometimes they also need to trim down the dowel pins or else the head won't be able to crush the head gasket properly, it'll bottom out on the dowel pins before the head gasket, which would definitely cause leakage. Something to look into...

I see your though process. The OEM head gasket material is definitely more of an insulator as opposed to copper. But I doubt how much of an effect it would have in practice. If you want to get technical, the copper might distribute the engine heat more throughout the whole motor. That means that the oil in the sump would theoretically be at a higher temp because the heat isn't kept closer to the combustion chambers anymore.

If you're looking for longevity, there are more factors that you should be focused on in my opinion. Shorter maintenance intervals, your riding habits, warm up procedure, etc. Member Ofreen hit 155k miles on his 750 back in June with no engine work and, unless I'm mistaken, has a completely stock motor...with stock gaskets of course.

[bwaller]

bwaller: how long do you think a copper gasket would last if it was sealed up with an adhesive? Give or take a few years?


That's impossible to say for sure, a week, a month, a season! You're on a break away so have at it. They will eventually weep.

Once again MLS (multi layer steel) have a thin viton coating that seals as well or better than graphite if the surfaces are flat. A viton coated base gasket is a far better solution as well. They may not transfer heat quite as well as copper but for a street engine there's no worry.

If at some point in the future you decide to replace, you have options. 

[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: Thank you.. I've tried to have other things made for my bike and it never worked out especially when the quotes they gave me were for bulk orders. One thing I tried to do was fabricate the cb350f sprocket and the studs that go into it. I found someone to make the sprockets at lower cost per quantity ordered but I couldn't find a manufacturer to make the studs that is unless I wanted to order 300 studs, lol. In the end I gave up my short lived dream of being a sprocket seller, and found a new old stock sprocket in Australia.

DaveBarbier: I did have the cylinders and head surfaces mated together, but in a another post I did an experiment by compressing strips of printer paper in between the two surfaces and the copper gasket. I held the cylinder head down by leaning on it and tried to pull out the strips of paper. I had 7 bundled together at once and I even did a single strip and they all tared each time. Point is I believed that there was no gap but the oil leak says otherwise. Here is the related post (bottom of page 1 to mid of page 2)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,156992.25.html
Also, 155k miles? over how long? I'm guessing 750 head gaskets don't blow out like the smaller fours.

bwaller: If I somehow solve my oil leaking and if that is related to my smoky exhaust, then I'll probably be the first casual cb350f rider with a copper gasket right? Anyways I did some research on MLS, but I couldn't find any existing head gaskets for the 350f and I have no clue how much the materials cost or how they cut it to spec. If someone had these made for this bike already I would be on board, but I'm a little burnt out from my attempts of custom manufacturing.

I think I'm going to attempt to re torque everything with new washers next week but if all else fails I am just going to swap it for graphite. By the way are any of those old new stock gaskets on ebay any good? Do any of them have asbestos? I have two incomplete NE gasket kits with some left overs and I don't want to have a third incomplete kit. Also I heard NE is crap, but I haven't had the chance long enough myself to see a new head gasket fail. Here are a couple of ebay post

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182197249849?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131903937040?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'm not sure how well asbestos does work compared to safer materials, but I live in a city where one of the tallest buildings is abandoned and is lined with asbestos.

[flybox1]

NE, Vesrah or Athena brand gaskets, and a proper torque sequence have worked for many here without issue, including me.
Some swear by Honda brand.  Cant get better than OEM.
I was on a budget when I built by 750.  Vesrah was what I had at the time.  My engine does not leak.

[camshaft1991]

Well, asbestos or not I think I'm going to get one of those oem gaskets since I really don't want to accumulate a bunch of unused gaskets from another kit. I've rebuilt my cases completely along with all new bearings except for the ball bearings for the transmission and I replaced every gasket and o-ring, even those pesky o-rings that don't have part numbers. But whether I succeed or not I'll still keep this post informed.

There's one thing I forgot to touch on about my spark plugs. If they aren't oil fowled then what are they, too rich?
This last picture is confusing for me.
1-3 are wet maybe with gas but 4 came out perfect.. This has to be because of the gasket leak right? And it's probably the cylinder where the smoke might be coming from. I won't know for sure until I re torque the head and solve my oil leak but if this has happened to anyone on a normal engine build with a graphite gasket, let me know.

[flybox1]

Yes....those look wet, but wet with what, oil? gas?
Under what condition were those plugs used?
Idle? runs on the freeway? trip around the block?
Did you try to tune it out with correcting the fuel level in the bowls?  IMS adjustments?
MAYBE.....the wet plugs are related to the leak.  the copper washers and gasket are questionable.
I guess you'll have to get a new gasket and copper washers in there under a good torque sequence, and see how a new set of plugs comes out after some run time.

[camshaft1991]

Alright so I had ordered 4oz of Gasgacinch, CRC copper gasket spray,  copper crush washers, and an old stock new head  gasket. They all came in today. I won't be able to start working on the bike again until tomorrow. I bought the OEM gasket and copper gasket spray as a backup; however, through what I've been told recently, I believe I'll scrap the idea for now and save the copper gasket for another occasion.. I commute an hour and a half every weekend to go work on my bike in my dad's garage. Even when I don't spend money I loose the opportunity to make good money over a weekend  driving for Uber.
So copper is out and graphite (maybe asbestos) is going in. Can I do a head gasket swap with the engine intact? Or is it safe to drain the oil after the engine has ran for a little over 30 mins? I know the oil is supposed to be drain at around ~500 miles after a build, but I know draining an engine early is usually not good.


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[DaveBarbier]

I know people have their own opinions on using a sealant for head gaskets, but I'm one for installing an OEM gasket dry and it's reinforced by this quote from Hondaman when he was replying to someone who says the OEM head gaskets have a heat activated adhesive impregnated in the gasket:

Like they said ^^^ if it is a genuine Honda gasket. Those have an excellent sealer in them to prevent the problem. Just be sure to bring the engine up to hot when doing the initial startup (no fan, please) so the sealant can get started doing its thing.

[flybox1]

IIWM, i'd drain the oil.  Might have less spillage when removing the valve cover and head.
Cleanliness.....be sure the mating surfaces are clean and dry before laying on the gasket.  Acetone is great for this.

[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: So draining the oil won't damage the engine? I'm guessing the engine has not run long enough to justify keeping the oil. I have three more gallons of oil in a box but I just wanted to get the confirmation that I could drain the oil.  I also have a gallon of acetone.

Even though I had my surfaces mated. I believe it's not a problem with clearance but rather then the surface quality itself. I had them worked on because I did a number on them before I discovered chemical removers like CRC gasket remover


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[flybox1]

Flybox1: So draining the oil won't damage the engine? I'm guessing the engine has not run long enough to justify keeping the oil. I have three more gallons of oil in a box but I just wanted to get the confirmation that I could drain the oil.  I also have a gallon of acetone.

Even though I had my surfaces mated. I believe it's not a problem with clearance but rather then the surface quality itself. I had them worked on because I did a number on them before I discovered chemical removers like CRC gasket remover


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No.  No harm.
On rebuilds oil should be drained after +/- 50 miles anyway. 
Some surface material will be suspended in the oils as parts wear-in.

What do you mean "worked on"?

[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: when I had my engine vapor blasted  the blaster, from Arnold's Design, asked if I wanted to have my cylinder head and my cylinder rack mated. I previously found screw driver gouging on the edge of the those two surfaces. Thinking I could fix this my self I took a file to one of the gouges
I didn't quite make anything better. This was march 2015. I don't have a pic of the other surface but here is what Arnold's Design did



These are the only pics I have of the surfaces. What you can't see is how the scratching from the surfaces are blended in a little and are smooth to the touch but are still visible. Gouge marks from what I believe is from a screw driver on the edges of the surface are more level with the rest of the surfaces. For those who don't know (not including Flybox1), when aluminum or metal in general, is stabbed like this.. the metal has to go somewhere. In this case the metal would shift away from the gouge point and up, thus creating slightly elevated surface.



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[flybox1]

Whats all that discoloration of the lower head surface near the #1 intake?
If you have locating dowels anywhere between the head and cylinders, and youve have the surfaces decked, you'll need to verify that these dowels dont also need to be modified so they dont prevent the surfaces from mating.
gap seen here:

[camshaft1991]

My mistake on what I said about how I had the surfaces worked on.
This is an email conversation I had awhile back with Brad Arnold. He said he would "true the lower side of the head"

If anyone needs vapor blasting done or your surfaces to be looked at and checked I would highly recommend Arnold's Design.


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[camshaft1991]

I'm going to see what happens if re torque my cylinder head just to see if there is a chance but mean time check this out
I don't believe this might be anti-seize. I never had any issues with my cover leaking but it could be tied into the exhaust smoke. Sh
But I'm cleaning it out now


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[camshaft1991]

The copper washers I bought from eBay are thinner and smaller in outside diameter in comparison to the old copper washers


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[flybox1]

definitely not wide enough. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brembo-banjo-bolt-8mm-inner-diameter-solid-copper-sealing-washer-or-drain-plug-/361620497382?hash=item543242e3e6:g:M0wAAOSwkl5XcxpS&vxp=mtr

Cam bearing and rocker faces look great, btw.

[bwaller]

Just looks like Hondabond or the like used to hold the cover o-ring in place.

[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: going back to what you said about discoloration near the intake, I believe that rusty looking  stuff is left over vapor blast materials or some kind of grinding fluid. I checked out the eBay post and mine are still bigger. The Outside diameter on mine are 16mm his are 14mm. Also he didn't mention anything about thickness which it should be 2.25mm or more. Could I get away with annealing my old washers?

Bwaller: It does look like Hondabond but it came out with the gasket. What was left inside the groves I used acetone. It was not not Hondabond because I didn't seal it up with Hondabond. I did make sure every bolt had lots of anti-seize and the threads were also covered with that grey stuff. The breather cover still had normal looking anti-seize on the bolts. I also stripped one of the outer most bolts while removing the cylinder head cover so apparently I didn't put enough anti-seize on.. or i applied too much torque previously. I believe I did so because less torque is required with anti-seize. I can't remember what torque value I had last time.


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[camshaft1991]

Also my rockers and my bearings were refurbished by Brad Arnold


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[camshaft1991]

Flybox1: I can't seem to find any replacement washers that I would feel comfortable using. Everything that I have found is off in thickness and in outside diameter. I'm just going to use the old washers. Sure they've been under torque for  +40 years but they look like they look good enough to be annealed if needed

In general, how would I go about annealing copper washers?
How many times would I need to heat each washer?
Would I need to hammer any washers to fix any warping that has occurred over time?

I've looked up videos but what are the SOH4 rider preferences going about this?


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[flybox1]

SAE sizing is 5/16" x 11/16" x 1/16"   
Try these...
https://www.amazon.com/16-Inch-Copper-Sealing-Washer/dp/B01EGO4IDK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475609942&sr=8-1&keywords=5%2F16+Inch+x+11%2F16+Inch+x+1%2F16+Inch+Copper+Sealing+Washer