Author Topic: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?  (Read 903 times)

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Offline Wingnut74

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Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« on: October 11, 2016, 10:44:01 AM »
1974 CB750 - Bike has been running great all over New England (New Hampshire White Mtns, Vermont, Maine) after last winter's total engine rebuild. All stock except + 1m oversize OEM pistons, and Rings, and Cycle-X 4-1 Sidewinders that I love. All four cylinders had really nice plug color, but there was zero response to idle screw Nothing. After many cleaning sessions and re-synch (with the old Carb-Stix) I saw good flow of Gumout through EVERY passage including that little passage that runs from the intake mouth to the emulsion tube. Ran one of those carb cleaning kit wires from that port in and 3 & 4 took alot of back and forth with the wire to get in the thicker wire that fit just barely into 1 & 2. Sprayed with Gumout and blasted with compressed air. Good Flow between intake thru passage to emulsion tube. Problem now is that 2 & 3 are really rich, and 1&4 are still perfect. I noted after re-reading Hondaman's book that if you accidentally enlarge that brass fitting hole in the intake to that passage you introduce too much pressure to push up gas and it will run rich unless you drop the needles. I am about to do this, but has anyone else had this happen. Seems weird because I only made those holes a little bigger and the 4 inake brass hole size seems about the same as the rest but its not rich. Any thought appreciated before my 4th time with these carbs off. Getting much faster at it!
74 CB360 - Winter 2014/2015 Project
74 CB750 - Winter 2015/2016 Project
70 Something TBD - Winter 2016/2017 Project

Offline Don R

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 11:49:13 AM »
Did you double check the float levels?  If not, do that.  I had a 76 that ran way rich, the floats were too high AND someone had drilled the jets.
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Offline Wingnut74

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Tried Everything and Still Rich on 2 & 3. Ready to buy new carbs
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 07:31:21 AM »
So I have had the carbs off 6 times now.  Time number 5 I checked the float levels and set 2 & 3 t to be a solid 4+mm below the lip, with the floats a little higher than gauge setting in those two (higher in the gauge, deeper in the bowl, lower fuel). I dropped the needles on 2 & 3 one position relative to 1 & 4.  Still rich on 2 & 3.  Then i bought a harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner and did each carb with 25% simple green, then did it again with just water to rinse the residue. Compressed air and Gumout everywhere, Carbs back on check out the pics of plugs 2 & 3. Sorta rich and super rich. I think this all started when I was running the thinnest 2 carb cleaning wires thru the main air intake jet hole in the intake bell of the carbs and running it back to the emulsifier tube passage. Seems like 2 possible poblems: 1. I get what seems like good flow of air/gumout/water thru that intake jet to the emulsifier, but maybe it's still not cleared out enough?, or 2. I enlarged that little intake jet a teeny bit and that was enough to make it run too rich, but then I already dropped 2 & 3 needles a notch and it did nothing at all. SO STUMPED! Any ideas appreciated. HELP! BTW all 4 jets are stock 105s.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 07:39:57 AM by Wingnut74 »
74 CB360 - Winter 2014/2015 Project
74 CB750 - Winter 2015/2016 Project
70 Something TBD - Winter 2016/2017 Project

Offline flybox1

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 07:48:35 AM »
What does and idle plug chop look like on a new set of plugs?

I'd start there.  Idle mixture screws need to be spot on, first.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 08:54:25 AM »
You seem to have done all the "normal " things to sort out the carbs/ mixture.

However, I note that your issues are on 1/4 an 2/3 boundaries.  ...Which are also spark coil/ignition divisions.  Yes, it could be coincidence.

But, have you reviewed the ignition settings and looked at the spark from each coil on a new set of spark plugs,

A thought...  Have you used a new set of spark plugs after making your carb improvements.  I note this because a sooted up spark plug can't make a proper spark arc, effecting its self clean ability.

As an objective onlooker, I have to ask if all the rest of the tune up procedures have been addressed before tackling carb fine tuning.

Cam chain tension
Valve clearance
Ignition timing and spark quality
Air filter cleaned or replaced
Compression check
Vacuum sync of the carbs.

Then assuming carbs are really the culprit here:
Have the jets been drilled?  They can be "measured" using drill bit shanks.
Are both the main and pilot circuit emuslifiers clear/clean?  Are they all the same Keihin brand? (hole size and placement in tube)
Next would be float/fuel bowl level (which you report has been addressed).
Do all the slide needles have the same number on them and appear unworn?  Same can be asked of the slide needle jet orifice.

Lastly the carb body circuits. 
(Caveat here is that I don't have access to a specific CB750 carb from your bike's era.  Design/operation principles are assumed to be the same as a CB550 carb.)
Each emulsifier cavity (Pilot and Main)  Has four access points. 1- the jet installation hole, 2. the carb throat delivery hole/exit,  3. the air bleed adjustment screw hole,  4. an air supply jet hole/orifice.

I have found that one has to "prove" the carb internal circuit bores by closing two of the four access points and flowing fluid into the circuit and noting that fluid can enter each point and exit to all the other points in turn.  (I recall some forum threads about corrosion blocking some of the passageways.)

This is probably enough to think about for now.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Wingnut74

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2017, 08:26:21 AM »
What does and idle plug chop look like on a new set of plugs?

I'd start there.  Idle mixture screws need to be spot on, first.

I could swear that there was no soot at idle, but will re try.  I first took a stab at the electrical issues -see below. thanks!
74 CB360 - Winter 2014/2015 Project
74 CB750 - Winter 2015/2016 Project
70 Something TBD - Winter 2016/2017 Project

Offline Wingnut74

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2017, 08:37:27 AM »

So a while back  I considered whether the problem might be electrical because of the cyl 2 & 3 issue, but dismissed it because I never considered that bad spark/incomplete burn could cause that sootiness. Now I am not so sire. It was also taking a long time to start which is not normal. Then I filed the points and it started right up. The points and condensers are within 1 year and %k miles new, but i keep getting a little beige corrosion spot on the center of each point contact that makes up maybe 1/4 of the full diameter. The points files from amazon don't really ever get rid of the whole spot. Should I get the points perfectly shiny new metal when I file or is minor corrosion OK? I only ran it maybe ten miles and it started having the same slow start. This time I broke the rules and used 600 grit with excessive cleaning with electronics cleaning spray and paper. Got them shiny new and it started right away. How much points corrosion is OK? Might I have bad relatively new condensers? Spark looked same on 1-4 and 2-3 but not sure I know what good spark looks like. BTW new OEM coils a year ago too.   Going to go over all connections / grounding and see if I can rule out electrical.   DId all those prior steps you suggest. thanks
74 CB360 - Winter 2014/2015 Project
74 CB750 - Winter 2015/2016 Project
70 Something TBD - Winter 2016/2017 Project

Offline flybox1

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Re: Last Possible Reason For 2 & 3 Running Rich?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2017, 08:50:27 AM »
Good questions, and I hope someone with more knowledge than I will chime in.
I would guess that misalignment/improper filing can contribute to premature/abnormal wear.
Maybe even points brand  :-\
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'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"