Author Topic: Quality of gas (Read 6812 times)

pjlogue · « **on:** October 29, 2016, 03:58:50 PM »

I was wondering, after seeing so many posts with carb problems, how many folks use Ethanol free gas in their bikes.

In April I decided to restore my 76 cb750k. When I started tearing the bike down I got to the carbs and took a deep breath before taking the bowls off. To my surprise the Aluminum castings were in good shape. Floats were stuck pretty good and the jets were clogged. The bike had been in my barn unused since 2000. When I got to the fuel tank I had to brace myself again anticipating the inside to be junk. Again, I was amazed to find the inside in almost perfect condition. I had put it in the barn in 2000 with 3/4 of a tank and don't remember using fuel saver or any other conditioner.

In thinking back, in 2000 in NY we didn't have a mandate to use Ethanol in the gas from ~Feb. to Nov. Thankfully the bike had been put in the barn with a tight fitting gas cap, fuel valve off and Ethanol free gas in the tank and carbs. The gas in the tank didn't even have the strong "funk" of old gas. Didn't smell fresh either.

After having problems with mowers, snow blowers, chain saws and any other carb fed engine I will never use gas with Ethanol again in them. In a pinch I will but I'll make sure to flush it out with Ethanol free first chance.

Aside from the physical damage the Ethanol does to the above equipment and bikes, the energy content of a gallon of Ethanol (10%) gas is lower than Ethanol free. I do enough driving (40,00 mi / year) to see a 20% drop in gas mileage with E-10%. Thankfully I have a gas station across the street that sells Ethanol free gas.

What do the folks here use in their bikes?

-P.

whitjonw · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:04:53 PM »

No doubt, non ethanol is the way to go. The best way to combat this is to let your federal reps and senators know about this and demand they vote against using ethanol and supporting the corn industry as it pertains to the use of ethanol.

grcamna2 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:24:20 PM »

I use 89 octane Ethanol free fuel in my bike and love it.I have to drive 40 miles and back to get it but I stock-up every once in a while.
pjlogue,that is very Nice you have a station right next to you !

pjlogue · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:35:01 PM »

When I didn't have Ethanol free gas nearby I used to wring out the alcohol from the gas. Ethanol has a greater affinity to water than it does for gas. If you put 10 ml of water in a beaker with 100 ml of E-10 gas and mix it you will end up with ~20 ml of "water" in the bottom of the beaker. Same thing happens with letting E-10 sitting around. Eventually the Ethanol in the gas absorbs enough water from the air it begins to drop out of solution. This precipitate is acidic and is what causes the corrosion in carbs.

-P.

b52bombardier1 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2016, 06:13:04 PM »

Definitely non ethanol here. I buy 93 octane no ethanol because my CL100 needs the high octane in the summer but its worth every penny of the extra 60-70 cents per gallon I pay. I used to buy no ethanol 100 octane Low Lead AVGAS at $6.50 a gallon because I had no source of standard no ethanol fuel but obviously, that is too expensive.

My only problem with the no ethanol fuel I'm buying now is that it is "unbranded" - I have no idea what it has for an detergent additive package. So, I add some Chevron Techron from the small black bottle . . . problem solved.

Rick

HondaMan · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2016, 06:29:12 PM »

While hard to find around here, the ethanol-free gas is worth the effort. In Colorado, the fuels are made from 91 octane non-ethanol "premium", sold mostly to small airports for piston airplanes like Cessnas or Pipers. Then it is diluted 6% with ethanol to get "midgrade" 87 octane and 10% with ethanol to get "regular" 85 octane.

When I rebuilt my 750 in 2013, I was disappointed at the way it ran afterward, still having idling issues and sputtering in hot city traffic. Then I stumbled across a local station with a single no-ethanol pump and filled up: in just 3 miles it completely "repaired" the bike, performance, smoothness, plug fouling, hot-idle issues, and stumbling all disappeared. About 3 weeks ago I had to fill up with the ethanol-laced stuff at a gas station, and immediately the bad traits reappeared.

When ethanol-laced fuel sits in the tanks (here, at least) for 2 weeks, it undergoes "phase stratification" and separates. Then the ethanol binds to a moisture molecule in the air (because these tanks are vented) and turns into a brownish- colored fluid that then is heavier than the gas, and settles to the bottom of the tank. This then starts the rust process, each time the air reaches those surfaces where this fluid has "wetted" the steel. In addition, the ethanol is a solvent, which over 6-8 months dissolves away the original protective plating Honda applied to the tank inside (this is a slight gold-ish color), leaving it as bare steel, unprotected sheet metal.

To help retard the rust, and to help the top rings of the pistons against this solvent action (which removes ALL oil), I have long (since 1996, when we here were forced into ethanol) added an ounce of oil to the tank at fill-up. This also helps reduce valve guide wear in the K3-K6 and post- F0 engines (the others have Stellite guides, which don't wear so quickly). Too much oil will gum up the float valves in the carbs, though, as any 2-stroke fan can attest, so don't overdo it. If I find the non-synthetic 2-stroke chainsaw oil, I use that: around here that stuff is scarce, though.

So, yeah, ethanol is really bad for these bikes! It also corrodes the float bowls once it turns brown, by putting water directly into contact with the aluminum bowls. Nasty stuff...

Bailgang · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2016, 03:53:15 AM »

I've read all the calamities of using E10 but haven't experienced any of it although both my GL and 750 do idle a bit smoother with ethanol free gas. Maybe I've been lucky but none of my lawn equipment seems to mind it even after being stored over the winter, I do put some Stabil in the gas when storing them for the winter but all my gas powered equipment fires right up come spring time and I can't remember the last time I had to pull a carb to clean it when spring came around. When riding my bikes I don't plan my routes around gas stations that have ethanol free gas, if I'm on a long ride and need gas I just hit the first station I see which for the most part means I have to settle with E10 and so far nothing bad has happened because of it. Fortunately for me though there is one gas station that's only about 2 miles away from here that does have one pump with ethanol free 91 octane gas but even then I don't use it on a regular basis but I have been filling my bikes up with it recently because I know sometime soon the bikes will be parked for the winter.

grcamna2 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2016, 06:04:42 AM »

Quote from: Bailgang on October 30, 2016, 03:53:15 AM

I've read all the calamities of using E10 but haven't experienced any of it although both my GL and 750 do idle a bit smoother with ethanol free gas. Maybe I've been lucky but none of my lawn equipment seems to mind it even after being stored over the winter, I do put some Stabil in the gas when storing them for the winter but all my gas powered equipment fires right up come spring time and I can't remember the last time I had to pull a carb to clean it when spring came around. When riding my bikes I don't plan my routes around gas stations that have ethanol free gas, if I'm on a long ride and need gas I just hit the first station I see which for the most part means I have to settle with E10 and so far nothing bad has happened because of it. Fortunately for me though there is one gas station that's only about 2 miles away from here that does have one pump with ethanol free 91 octane gas but even then I don't use it on a regular basis but I have been filling my bikes up with it recently because I know sometime soon the bikes will be parked for the winter.

You must be one of the fortunate ones who doesn't leave fuel sit for too long but uses the machines.The E10 does collect water and pump it through your engine though..

Old Scrambler · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2016, 06:42:47 AM »

I am with all of you on avoiding ethanol-fuel whenever possible. I would add that I also avoid BP branded fuels because I have noted that something in their blend tends to discolor or stain the paint on my tanks. I think it basically 'yellows' the clear-coat.

major domo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2016, 12:22:04 PM »

I use "real" gas in my '75 Kawasaki 900 Z-1. The difference in performance, even tick-over, etc. is well worth the difference in price, IMHO.

Bailgang · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2016, 12:42:12 PM »

Quote from: grcamna2 on October 30, 2016, 06:04:42 AM

The E10 does collect water and pump it through your engine though..

You make it sound like that's a bad thing. If there is enough moisture for the ethanol to absorb and be an issue then that tells me there is enough moisture to be an issue in the first place and I'd rather have that moisture blend with the ethanol so it can be burnt or at least removed from the fuel system rather than that moisture stay separated allowing it to settle to the bottom of the tank or float bowls where it would literally get pumped through the engine. HEET fuel "antifreeze is primarily ethanol and that's how it works and it's been around long before E10 came around in fact it's been available long before un-leaded fuel became the norm so the threat of condensation building up in your fuel system is nothing new especially for those of us who live in colder climates. The issue I have with E10 is that ethanol doesn't want to blend with gasoline and the additives needed to make the 2 blend doesn't last all that long and I think that's where the trouble starts.

I do ride my bikes often enough for E10's short shelf life to not be an issue but I do make sure they have ethanol free gas for winter. The mowers and other gas powered equipment don't get used any more often then anyone elses and set with E10 and a dash of Stabil for the winter with no issues come spring time which is why I can't figure out why so many have issues with their small engines and I don't.

Deltarider · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2016, 01:20:05 PM »

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You make it sound like that's a bad thing. If there is enough moisture for the ethanol to absorb and be an issue then that tells me there is enough moisture to be an issue in the first place and I'd rather have that moisture blend with the ethanol so it can be burnt or at least removed from the fuel system rather than that moisture stay separated allowing it to settle to the bottom of the tank or float bowls where it would literally get pumped through the engine. HEET fuel "antifreeze is primarily ethanol and that's how it works and it's been around long before E10 came around in fact it's been available long before un-leaded fuel became the norm so the threat of condensation building up in your fuel system is nothing new especially for those of us who live in colder climates. The issue I have with E10 is that ethanol doesn't want to blend with gasoline and the additives needed to make the 2 blend doesn't last all that long and I think that's where the trouble starts.
I do ride my bikes often enough for E10's short shelf life to not be an issue but I do make sure they have ethanol free gas for winter. The mowers and other gas powered equipment don't get used any more often then anyone elses and set with E10 and a dash of Stabil for the winter with no issues come spring time which is why I can't figure out why so many have issues with their small engines and I don't.

Bailgang, you hit the nail on it's head. This whole thing of ethanol adding water to the fuel is a myth. There may be things wrong with ethanol fuel (danger to rubber seals), but not that it contracts water. In fact it binds water and so is even better than conventional gas. Some years ago I asked the importer of the inboard engine in my yacht if I could do something to prevent (condens) water accumulating in the 120 liter fuel tank. He answered that there were plenty products in the market for this but I could do myself a favour (and save money) by adding just a liter of what we call 'spiritus' (denatured alcohol) to a tank. Now I cannot speak for the situation in the US (corn syrup lobby/blenders that after having created an epidemic of obesitas and diabetes now have a market in fuel) but in Europe, if you ride your bike regularly, there's not much to fear. For hibernation it's best to ad an additive and/or have ethanol free gas in the tank. I personally favor designer fuels like Shell V-power and BP Ultimate. They used to be ethanolfree. Recently I've read conflicting info. Some say they now have 5% ethanol too. Ever since lead disappeared (and rightly so!) I have the feeling gas is not as lubricous as before. Like Hondaman I ad a little 2-stroke or diesel. Without it I don't hear the valves rustling like in the old days and with it they do. I suppose you could also use a little bit of Seafoam or whatever, but... just a little bit. You want a clean as possible combustion and no deposits. For those of you that want to use Avgas, you must know you are poisoning the environment again, but if you do it for the lead, it's enough to use 1 liter of Avgas to 40 liters of gas.

pjlogue · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2016, 02:48:37 PM »

Ethanol is a hydroscopic molecule. It attracts water because of the OH group on the molecule. It is also a slightly polar molecule. So is water. Ethanol has a greater affinity for water than it does for gas and it will pull water vapor out of the air. When ethanol is mixed with gas the ethanol still is hydroscopic and will pull water vapor out of the air. When the enough water vapor is absorbed by the ethanol the water-ethanol mix begins to separate out (it's polar and gas isn't) and settles to the bottom. It's this ethanol-water mix that eats away cast aluminum of the carbs. The ethanol in the gas also will dry out older type rubber components in the carbs as well.

-P.

grcamna2 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2016, 03:30:55 PM »

Quote from: pjlogue on October 30, 2016, 02:48:37 PM

Ethanol is a hydroscopic molecule. It attracts water because of the OH group on the molecule. It is also a slightly polar molecule. So is water. Ethanol has a greater affinity for water than it does for gas and it will pull water vapor out of the air. When ethanol is mixed with gas the ethanol still is hydroscopic and will pull water vapor out of the air. When the enough water vapor is absorbed by the ethanol the water-ethanol mix begins to separate out (it's polar and gas isn't) and settles to the bottom. It's this ethanol-water mix that eats away cast aluminum of the carbs. The ethanol in the gas also will dry out older type rubber components in the carbs as well.

-P.

Thanks for explaining this so I understand it pjlogue.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2016, 11:01:31 PM »

Quote from: pjlogue on October 30, 2016, 02:48:37 PM

Ethanol is a hydroscopic molecule. It attracts water because of the OH group on the molecule. It is also a slightly polar molecule. So is water. Ethanol has a greater affinity for water than it does for gas and it will pull water vapor out of the air. When ethanol is mixed with gas the ethanol still is hydroscopic and will pull water vapor out of the air. When the enough water vapor is absorbed by the ethanol the water-ethanol mix begins to separate out (it's polar and gas isn't) and settles to the bottom. It's this ethanol-water mix that eats away cast aluminum of the carbs. The ethanol in the gas also will dry out older type rubber components in the carbs as well.

-P.

Great post, nothing like some facts to dispel the "myths" in this thread. I live in a very hot humid place near the ocean, and for the very reasons you state, ethanol fuel carries a warning not to be used as a marine fuel, there are warnings on the gas pumps everywhere not to use E10 in boat engines because it "absorbs moisture".... And just for the record, unleaded fuel is as bad or worse for pollution and the environment than the old leaded fuels..

Quote

BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.
To reduce moisture accumulation, tanks must be kept full so there is less space for condensation. On the other hand, ethanol blends should be kept for no longer than two weeks.

BomberMann650 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2016, 11:59:45 PM »

Read recently that ethanol is killing fuel pumps in bmw's newer bikes. Guzzi bought american gas to begin testing their systems against it.

Deltarider · « **Reply #16 on:** October 31, 2016, 12:45:26 AM »

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Great post, nothing like some facts to dispel the "myths" in this thread.

It's true that alcohol in itself is hydroscopic but the myth is that your fuel goes on and on contracting water in an alarming pace. That's the myth. The point is that it is very unlikely that your fuel ever reaches that saturation level where it becomes a problem. That's why (to fight a spreading, unnecessary panic) I said it will not be a problem if you ride regularly. There are millions and millions of riders that proof that. Aral proofed that in a tank that has had nothing but non-ethanol fuel you'll find in fact more water at the bottom of the tank than those filled with ethanol fuel. And that unbinded water can be poblem. As said above, I prefer non ethanol fuel but if I have to tank E5 or E10, when I have no choice, it's not giving me sleepless nights. Not at all. For hibernation however I want to have non ethanol fuel in my tank or ad a stabilizer. As far as fuelpumps etc, yes, there could be a risk, mainly motors manufactured before 2006/2007 as far as the European market is concerned. We have some documented cases of expensive parts that broke. How our rubber seals react, frankly I still don't know. What I do know is all mine are still OK and they have seen plenty ethanol fuel. Sorry for not joining the hype but give some nuance in this matter.

Quote

I live in a very hot humid place near the ocean, and for the very reasons you state, ethanol fuel carries a warning not to be used as a marine fuel, there are warnings on the gas pumps everywhere not to use E10 in boat engines because it "absorbs moisture"....

I'm a yachtsman myself and I'm aware of this, but the warning is there not because of all that neighbouring moisture in the ocean, but it has to do with the practice that boats sometimes are left unattended and are not used in months.

Quote

And just for the record, unleaded fuel is as bad or worse for pollution and the environment than the old leaded fuels..

And just for the record, and just for the record, don't make us laugh, there are plenty of records that have calculated the damage done to children brains in their development. You don't have to look far, I'm afraid. But really... speaking of myths in this thread.

Bailgang · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2016, 02:09:00 AM »

Quote from: Retro Rocket on October 30, 2016, 11:01:31 PM

I live in a very hot humid place near the ocean, and for the very reasons you state, ethanol fuel carries a warning not to be used as a marine fuel, there are warnings on the gas pumps everywhere not to use E10 in boat engines because it "absorbs moisture"

Quote
BP, Shell and Caltex all advise boat owners not to use ethanol mix fuels in boats. They say that is mostly because ethanol has a dramatically shorter life, especially in a marine environment.
To reduce moisture accumulation, tanks must be kept full so there is less space for condensation. On the other hand, ethanol blends should be kept for no longer than two weeks.

So which is it? Because it absorbs moisture or because it has a short shelf life? The ethanol free pump around here is real popular with the recreational boaters here because they don't use their boats on a regular basis. I on the other hand ride both my bikes often enough that E10's short shelf life isn't an issue nor have enough time to absorb enough moisture to be an issue either. Guys I'm not cheering for E10, I'm not crazy about it either but being I don't plot my routes around where the next ethanol free pump is I don't go into panic mode if I'm forced to use it because I know it won't be setting in my tank long enough to be an issue.

Deltarider · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31, 2016, 03:32:12 AM »

I have compared the readings on the hygrometer at home and on my boat and never saw much difference if at all. There are other factors to observe. The fuel tank on my boat is, like many yachts, in the engine compartment and so goes up and down in many temperature cycles. I often wondered how this is with the fuel tanks on our bikes. I presume that after a ride a hot engine radiates heat to the tank above it but I haven't done measurements.
In Holland (and Europe) we now move from E5 to E10. Of topic but nevertheless: all Honda motorcycles, mopeds/scooters for the European market from 1993 on, can safely tank E10.

70CB750 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2016, 04:04:09 AM »

I fill with pure gas as often as I can - funny, closer to the evil vortex, aka DC, harder it is to find it - and pure gas makes a huge difference in how the engine runs. In Europe, it is the same from what I know from guys who are into old cars and motorcycles.

Dumping ethanol to gasoline is just one of those idiotic greenish moves called progress.

See my signature to find a pure gas near you,

grcamna2 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2016, 05:09:23 AM »

Quote from: 70CB750 on October 31, 2016, 04:04:09 AM

I fill with pure gas as often as I can - funny, closer to the evil vortex, aka DC, harder it is to find it - and pure gas makes a huge difference in how the engine runs. In Europe, it is the same from what I know from guys who are into old cars and motorcycles.

Dumping ethanol to gasoline is just one of those idiotic greenish moves called progress.

See my signature to find a pure gas near you,

Thanks for having that link in your signature,I've used it plenty.

John Eberly · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2016, 05:52:36 AM »

Quote from: 70CB750 on October 31, 2016, 04:04:09 AM

I fill with pure gas as often as I can - funny, closer to the evil vortex, aka DC, harder it is to find it - and pure gas makes a huge difference in how the engine runs. In Europe, it is the same from what I know from guys who are into old cars and motorcycles.

Dumping ethanol to gasoline is just one of those idiotic greenish moves called progress.

See my signature to find a pure gas near you,

Thanks for the link. That is helpful.

Not so much the characterization of progress as idiocy

. Ethanol replaced MBTE as a fuel oxygenator because MTBE can contaminate water systems. MTBE was added to gasoline when lead was removed and oxygenated gasoline was required. The net effect was to reduce lead contamination and smog. Do you remember the smog in California in the 60's? It's mostly gone now.

Over all, we're better off with ethanol for most vehicles. I run any regular or midgrade fuel in my modern cars and have no problems. I even run my old bikes on pump gas without checking the ethanol content. I know I'll have to do more maintenance on them, but I do that anyway because they are 40+ years old. It take a little work to re-create the "good old days", but it's worth it.

pjlogue · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2016, 09:00:55 AM »

The MTBE was added as an Oxygenate. It was mandated by the EPA and the gas companies were forced to use it. Low and behold, several years down the road many of the ground water supplies were contaminated with the MTBE. What does EPA do? Instead of blaming themselves for a knee jerk reaction THEY initiated, they turn around and try and start legal action against the makers of MTBE because manufacture caused pollution.

The ethanol in gas is meant to replace the MBTE. So now we have mandatory 10% ethanol in the gas which causes a decrease in gas mileage of ~15% (I have measured this carefully over several years) and we now use 15% more gas. This doesn't take into account the energy needed to grow, transport, ferment, distill and distribute the ethanol.

Funny how the law makers made sure that they can't legally be held responsible for the consequences of they laws they pass.

One thing I have found useful is using Acetone in my gas. I can increase my mileage by ~7-8% by using 10ml Acetone in 5 gal of gas. The Acetone acts as a surfactant and allows finer atomization of the fuel droplets. This allows for a more complete burn of the fuel. It gives a cleaner combustion chamber and less fuel is on the walls of the combustion chamber so less gets in the oil as well. I have used this in my cars for over 10 years now with no harmful consequences to the car or car parts. My current car has 310,000 mi on it. The mileage increase is because the modern cars use a feedback system from the O2 sensors. The sensors see less O2 in the exhaust (because more fuel is being burnt) and shortens the injection pulse to the injectors to lean out the mixture. For this to work in a normally aspirated bike you would have to re-jet the carbs to lean them out. I may try it next spring just to see if I can get a smoother idle.

-P.

Deltarider · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2016, 09:33:00 AM »

Pjlogue, I do not question your results, so don't get me wrong. I know motors differ too much to draw general conclusions. Overhere usually an increase of 1,5% is communicated by consumer organisations like the Dutch AA. I did some extra searches today and the general view (FWIW) is that ethanol gas has a 'shelf life' of 6 months. I don't know if I'll do much riding anymore this year (it's getting colder) but the next time I will measure the temperature of the tank when returned from a ride with a hot engine. My hypothesis is that these hot-cold cycles create condens water in the tank when cooling down. Once condens water is built, it will sink to the bottom. It will be a little but that's the theory. I'll keep you informed. Others can help too. If you have an infrared heat gun, you can measure the tanktemperature after a ride and then say 15-20 minutes after you've parked your bike. Could be interesting.

pjlogue · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2016, 10:49:23 AM »

I think you are correct about the engine causing greater temp swings in the gas tank and this would increase the amount of air sucked in upon cool down. A good reason to keep the tank topped off as much as possible.

Am I reading your post correctly in that the Dutch AA claims that having ethanol in the gas increases the gas mileage by 1,5%?

I will probably ride through out the winter months as long as the roads are clear and dry and the wife doesn't shoot me for going out in 20 F weather. If you store your bike for long periods (more than a month) I would use up all the gas in the tank and refill it with fresh gas and add gas stabilizer to it and make sure the tank is topped off and sealed tight. Drain the float bowls and change the oil.

I just finished restoring my bike and got it on the road a few weeks ago. Now the weather is getting colder and wetter. I feel gypped!

-P.

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Author Topic: Quality of gas (Read 6812 times)