Author Topic: Precious Metal Spark Plugs  (Read 8349 times)

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2006, 03:10:53 AM »
Most of you guys have never seen a very old low output ignition system.   

 ;D ::) ::)

Ya reckon Tim? ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Steve F

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2006, 04:40:12 AM »
A question for HondaMan:
you wrote about the wires:
4. Resistor plugs should always be used when the coil and wires feeding it are the type designed for resistor plugs. If non-resistor ones are used in this situation, the coils will get extra hot and the wires will begin to burn themselves out, increasing their resistance. The spark duration will be shorter, too, because the plug's current is too high for the coil. Conversely, resistor plugs should NOT be used if the system was not designed for them, as they will reduce the spark's ability to jump the gap. The difference in these systems is in the "tuning" of the inductance of the coil and condenser in use, and they should not be mixed up, lest performance decrease. Some later-model CB750s used resistor-plug systems, K4 and earlier did not.
I have DYNA 3 ohm coils and a DYNA-S, and was wondering if you can elaborate on the coils being "designed" for resistor type plugs, and related wires.  I must admit, I'm not too clear on the reason for resistor plugs and/or caps, and what the benefits are.  It seems to me that resistance in a plug or wire is something to stay away from unless the only reason is to supress RFI or something like that.
Also, how can a plug's current be too high for the wires?  ???

Offline Steve F

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2006, 06:32:44 AM »
post bump

Offline ieism

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2006, 09:35:09 AM »
Exactly. What Steve asked, I need to know the same thing before I decide to put kryptonite plugs in my bikes.
---cb550---

eldar

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2006, 10:14:04 AM »
well I have not run across anything bad about them at all. In everything I have read, they have improved ignition in whetever engine they are put in.

Offline Steve F

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2006, 12:59:19 PM »
I'm looking for more info about the wires.  HondaMan wrote something that touched on the subject, but really didn't elaborate.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2006, 08:00:48 PM »
A question for HondaMan:
you wrote about the wires:
4. Resistor plugs should always be used when the coil and wires feeding it are the type designed for resistor plugs. If non-resistor ones are used in this situation, the coils will get extra hot and the wires will begin to burn themselves out, increasing their resistance. The spark duration will be shorter, too, because the plug's current is too high for the coil. Conversely, resistor plugs should NOT be used if the system was not designed for them, as they will reduce the spark's ability to jump the gap. The difference in these systems is in the "tuning" of the inductance of the coil and condenser in use, and they should not be mixed up, lest performance decrease. Some later-model CB750s used resistor-plug systems, K4 and earlier did not.
I have DYNA 3 ohm coils and a DYNA-S, and was wondering if you can elaborate on the coils being "designed" for resistor type plugs, and related wires.  I must admit, I'm not too clear on the reason for resistor plugs and/or caps, and what the benefits are.  It seems to me that resistance in a plug or wire is something to stay away from unless the only reason is to supress RFI or something like that.
Also, how can a plug's current be too high for the wires?  ???

The current, at the moment of spark, can reach values like 10 amps. That's a lot for a small wire size, like the ones found in some spark plug wires, if they are resistor wires (resistor wires are often flat, spiral-wound carbon ribbons). To calculate the current in your system, use this approximate formula:
   1. (Ignition voltage at the coil with points closed) x (current at the points) = WATT SECONDS stored in coil (about 36 for CB750).
   2.  1 / (200 [this is 12000 RPM, in Hz)]) = DISCHARGE TIME (which = .005 seconds).
   3.  (WATT SECONDS) / (DISCHARGE TIME) = DISCHARGE WATTAGE per SECOND (about 7200 on CB750).
   4.  (DISCHARGE WATTAGE per SECOND) / (COIL RESISTANCE) = DISCHARGE CURRENT SQUARED  (which=3.46 amps here).

NOTE: these calcs ignore the energy added by the condensor and the increased spark discharge rate caused by the condensor, which acts like a "speedup" device on the order of about 12% to 15% in a well-tuned system. In other words, add about 12% to the above value (total 3.88 amps) to get your "real" results.

The resistors in the plugs (or plug caps) take a beating like this at every spark. Inside a sparkplug, the resistors are very small and depend on the heatsinking of the engine to "save their butts" from overheating and the resulting loss of carbon, which increases the resistance until it burns away into an open gap. This open gap can still fire, but it uses some of the HV energy to create a plasma first to jump the .030" (or so) gap first, then it jumps the spark gap, but weakened.

Resistor wires cause the energy to focus into a plasma field that helps the HV travel along the surface of the conductive parts of the cable. This "surface travel" mimics electricity's natural tendency, which is to travel along the outer few thousandths of any wire. By encouraging this movement, the losses drop AFTER the first spark travels the wire, and the efficiency of the wire improves with more RPM. This is one reason why they became so popular: the high-RPM "droop" in HV is reduced with resistor wires of the wound type, when compared to a stranded metal HV wire. But, this plasma carrier must necessarily be thin, so they do burn out with time.

Either way, there is resistance, whether by plug, cap or wound wire. This resistance controls the discharge rate of the coil's stored-up watts. If it discharges too fast, due to higher currents (like in a resistor-less system), then the energy is lost as heat in the trip from coil to plug. This heat destroys the wire faster than normal by overheating it, too. If the current is limited to a lower value, the voltage rises (ohm's law isn't just a good idea: it is the law, you know) to dump the wattage into the gap.

I know that's a lot of theory, but maybe with a beer or a snack, it might begin to make some sense...   :P
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 08:29:53 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline TomC

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2006, 07:02:40 AM »
Hi HondaMan
     Could you give me an idea what the resistance is across the spark?
TomC in Ohio
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Offline TomC

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2006, 02:24:41 PM »
Hi HondaMan
     After thinking about it that would be a range of Resistances. For a stock SOHC4. Lowest at idle? Highest at torque peak with WOT?
TomC in Ohio
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2006, 07:42:37 PM »
You're right about it being a range of resistances. At idle, the compression is highest and causes the greatest resistance, typically several megohms in a warmed-up engine (approximately 10 megohms equivalent "resistance"). This makes for an explosive spark. At midrange (5000 RPM) the plasma tends to start precharging the plug and the "resistance" starts to drop. This is also where Honda's coils are most efficient. At high RPM (8000+) the heat and plasma make the spark jump the gap easier, but the coils are playing out. The "resistance" up here is lower, approximately 1-2 megohms, depending on fuel, plug type, points and condensor condition, spark wire condition and humidity, among other things.

But, gap resistance is not particularly controllable by the user. The plug's built-in resistor ("R" type plugs) or the wire's resistance is your tuning tool. Ideally, the plug wire, cap or plug should be about 8,000-10,000 ohms on the Honda CB750, slightly more on a CB500 (as an example). If the cap, wire or plug shows more than 11,000 ohms, then some erosion has taken place and the spark energy at the gap will start dropping. When the plug/wire/cap resistance goes beyond 15,000 ohms the bike is often hard to start, won't wind up well, or fouls plugs. It will still run, just not all that well.

Cars suffer the same typical symptoms, but they use both resistance wire and resistor plugs to improve radio reception and reduce noise problems in the computer sensors. As a result, they use "hotter" coils and the RPM is typically limited to something less than 6000 RPM so the spark doesn't "run out". The coils are wound to saturate faster and discharge quicker, and are oil-filled to withstand the heat they make (and suffer under the hood). The coils in a bike are too close to the gas tank to use this kind of design: bike coils must run cooler and not generate a strong magnetic field around them, lest they cause other problems for nearby parts. So, bike coils are wound as "broadband" coils, with low Q (resonance) and resulting low efficiencies, so they can reach twice as many RPM with usable spark output while making little heat.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scunny

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2006, 02:59:02 AM »
this is why I like my lawnmower, it just goes  ;D
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2006, 03:46:05 AM »
this is why I like my lawnmower, it just goes  ;D

It goes "Baaaa, Baaaa"! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

eldar

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2006, 10:27:56 AM »
Must have been a model imported from Oz!! ;D

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2006, 05:21:16 PM »
Must have been a model imported from Oz!! ;D

Nah mate, all sheep over her and in New Zealand say that, but I know the ones in North Dakota say "No Eldy.......... Please........... stay away from me, you sick pervert!" :))
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

kettlesd

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2006, 06:46:22 PM »


The current, at the moment of spark, can reach values like 10 amps. That's a lot for a small wire size, like the ones found in some spark plug wires, if they are resistor wires (resistor wires are often flat, spiral-wound carbon ribbons). To calculate the current in your system, use this approximate formula:
   1. (Ignition voltage at the coil with points closed) x (current at the points) = WATT SECONDS stored in coil (about 36 for CB750).
   2.  1 / (200 [this is 12000 RPM, in Hz)]) = DISCHARGE TIME (which = .005 seconds).
   3.  (WATT SECONDS) / (DISCHARGE TIME) = DISCHARGE WATTAGE per SECOND (about 7200 on CB750).
   4.  (DISCHARGE WATTAGE per SECOND) / (COIL RESISTANCE) = DISCHARGE CURRENT SQUARED  (which=3.46 amps here).

NOTE: these calcs ignore the energy added by the condensor and the increased spark discharge rate caused by the condensor, which acts like a "speedup" device on the order of about 12% to 15% in a well-tuned system. In other words, add about 12% to the above value (total 3.88 amps) to get your "real" results.

The resistors in the plugs (or plug caps) take a beating like this at every spark. Inside a sparkplug, the resistors are very small and depend on the heatsinking of the engine to "save their butts" from overheating and the resulting loss of carbon, which increases the resistance until it burns away into an open gap. This open gap can still fire, but it uses some of the HV energy to create a plasma first to jump the .030" (or so) gap first, then it jumps the spark gap, but weakened.

Resistor wires cause the energy to focus into a plasma field that helps the HV travel along the surface of the conductive parts of the cable. This "surface travel" mimics electricity's natural tendency, which is to travel along the outer few thousandths of any wire. By encouraging this movement, the losses drop AFTER the first spark travels the wire, and the efficiency of the wire improves with more RPM. This is one reason why they became so popular: the high-RPM "droop" in HV is reduced with resistor wires of the wound type, when compared to a stranded metal HV wire. But, this plasma carrier must necessarily be thin, so they do burn out with time.

Either way, there is resistance, whether by plug, cap or wound wire. This resistance controls the discharge rate of the coil's stored-up watts. If it discharges too fast, due to higher currents (like in a resistor-less system), then the energy is lost as heat in the trip from coil to plug. This heat destroys the wire faster than normal by overheating it, too. If the current is limited to a lower value, the voltage rises (ohm's law isn't just a good idea: it is the law, you know) to dump the wattage into the gap.

I know that's a lot of theory, but maybe with a beer or a snack, it might begin to make some sense...   :P
Quote


Hey HondaMan - i bow at your all-knowing electrical prowess!!!

Can you explain to me however, how the condensers INCREASE energy???? I thought they were basically a capacitor - storing energy like a battery, yet releasing it in one dump of power?? With no internal magnetic coil windings, how would they increase electrical energy??????

eldar

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2006, 08:28:36 PM »
we dont have sheep in north dakota. Thats Montana your thinking of! But I have to wonder, How do you know sheep talk? ;D

Offline scunny

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2006, 09:49:35 PM »
How do you know sheep talk?
people need to know ?

regarding the plugs. I bought a GS1000EC off a shop when the 1000's first came out, it was 6 months old and had been flown to NZed for a 6 hour endurance race then had been campaigned for the rest of the season. I was riding it to work every day and it kept on fouling the plugs, so bad in fact that I kept having to get new ones. In the end on advice from the race team owner I put in a set of platinum plugs and the problem was gone.
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2006, 05:11:20 PM »
How do you know sheep talk?
people need to know ?

regarding the plugs. I bought a GS1000EC off a shop when the 1000's first came out, it was 6 months old and had been flown to NZed for a 6 hour endurance race then had been campaigned for the rest of the season. I was riding it to work every day and it kept on fouling the plugs, so bad in fact that I kept having to get new ones. In the end on advice from the race team owner I put in a set of platinum plugs and the problem was gone.

G'Day Scunny, did that Suzy have slide carbs or CV's? My 1981 GS1000SN used to foul plugs when I had the 33mm slide carbs fitted, but with the 34mm CV's off an "E" it runs quite lean?

Interestingly, they're both still on standard factory  settings and jet sizes, although I did chuck the crappy 4 into 1 "Pipeline" pipe (Aussie Mac) that was on it when I bought it and got a "Megacycle" 4 into 1 built for it? Cheers, Terry. :))
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2006, 06:43:14 PM »
Can you explain to me however, how the condensers INCREASE energy???? I thought they were basically a capacitor - storing energy like a battery, yet releasing it in one dump of power?? With no internal magnetic coil windings, how would they increase electrical energy??????

Condensors increase coil output by "tuning" the coil to a higher peak, letting it discharge to a high voltage faster. This comes from radio theory, actually: it's called the "Q", or "resonance" of an L-C circuit (that's a Coil-Capactive circuit). If you know the operating frequency of a tuned L-C circuit and the resistance (impedance, technically) of the discharge path, you can select a value of either the coil or the inductor to store all of the energy in this "Q" for a definable length of time. If the "Q" impedance equals the output impedance, the power that transfers from the stored L-C circuit is the most it can be, when it is released. In this mode, it acts as a "tuning" element, and the capacitance value must equal or exceed the capacitance (by a little bit) in the spark wires and the spark plug's circuit. For example, spiral-wound resistor wires have more capacitance than solid conductor wires, so condensors for those systems are often a little higher in value.

After the spark has "dumped", the L-C circuit can try to "ring" or recharge itself with some of the leftover plasma in the discharge circuit. If it starts to do this, then the recharge for the next time takes longer. So, after the initial discharge, the first negative pulse that "echoes" back to the points through the coil is neutralized by the leftovers in the condensor (it has a little extra positive charge left after the spark). In this mode, it is a "speedup" capacitor.

The designer's task it to try to make the voltage as small as possible at the moment the points close, so as to improve point life. Purely by nature's chance, tuning for low startup spark also tunes for minimum spark across the points as they open after charging the circuit. In the perfect Kettering arrangement, the RPM matches the breadth of the "Q" of the circuit so the power is the same at all RPMs. In Honda's circuits for the old SOHC, the coils peak at 2k-5500 RPM and the condensors "spread" the power upward toward 8000+ or so. This lets the system run over a wide span, but not in a particularly efficient way. Specifically, it causes high points wear at 3500-5000 RPM ranges as a tradeoff.

So, the transistorized "assistant" I'm building will take this electrical load off of the points to let them last longer.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scunny

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2006, 07:59:57 PM »
she had(gs1000) the sliders Terry, I had a 4into1 made for it and ran stacks.that didn't upset the running of it, I used to change pipes like some people change their gruds, sometimes I'd run in production class and other times just had a need to take all the crap off it and run against the superbike boys. those plugs were worth every cent
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2006, 02:12:06 AM »
she had(gs1000) the sliders Terry, I had a 4into1 made for it and ran stacks.that didn't upset the running of it, I used to change pipes like some people change their gruds, sometimes I'd run in production class and other times just had a need to take all the crap off it and run against the superbike boys. those plugs were worth every cent

Thanks mate, I might get some of those fancy plugs, one area with GS1000's as opposed to CB750's is their sensitivity to carburettion, my GS1000S pretty much won't run past idle with the air filter removed, and even going from the OEM paper air filter to a freer flowing oiled foam "Uni filter" necessitated raising the needles a notch on my CV carbs, but hell, I'm getting 50+ miles per gallon on crappy 93 octane unleaded, so I really can't #$%*!

Hey do you know Smithy from "Pro-Weigh" (in Auckland, I think?) owner/racer of a beautiful black GS1000? I traded some carbs with him years ago, and we got together when he came over with some other Kiwi's to race at the Phillip Island Classic? Top bloke, and magnificent bike! Last I heard he was selling it on Trademe.com, but I think he wanted about 17000 bucks for it, so it was well out of my meagre range, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. :)     
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:20:53 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline scunny

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Re: Precious Metal Spark Plugs
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2006, 09:28:28 AM »
don't know him but have seen the bike, it has everything done to it. he did have it up on trade me but I don't think he sold it due to the $$$$$$
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny