Author Topic: Should I change these swingarm bushings?  (Read 9096 times)

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Offline Johnny340

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Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« on: October 31, 2016, 03:45:36 PM »
'75 CB750F.  This 'collar' as Honda calls it was hard to remove and fit tight (and is no longer available, I think).  The bushings seem ok but I wondered if I should change them to bronze while it's apart.  Lots of debate about bushings and bearings but I don't know what to do here..
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
1981 CB650
1974 T-500
2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2016, 04:18:20 PM »
Can ya run a wire brush down em see how they look after that?

Offline pjlogue

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2016, 04:22:27 PM »
Bushing...defiantly.  The rod looks galled as well.  You might get away with using fine emery cloth on the rod to clean it up.

-P.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2016, 04:41:23 PM »
Well, you have it apart don't you! Yeah, clean up the collar and get it filled with some grease for those new bushes. MUCH harder to get the old ones out that tapping new ones in.

While you're at it replace the steering head bearings with tapered ones.

Two upgrades that should be done if it's apart. IMO anyway. $50 for both if purchased correctly.

As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2016, 04:47:17 PM »
I would change bushings now.

Also you could cut grease grooves in the collar, the way the early Honda's had it.  The idea is to help the grease flow, see the picture.  You start from the grease hole and wind it around the collar.  Does not have to be precise.

I done it for every collar I used, dremel tool and grinding disc works well.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:49:40 PM by 70CB750 »
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Offline MoMo

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2016, 06:01:39 PM »
Bushing change in order. It's apart, do it....Larry

Offline disco

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2016, 08:54:35 PM »
1976 CB750 K6 Sapphire Blue
1972 CB750 K2 836 Orange Sunrise
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Offline Johnny340

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2016, 10:28:51 AM »
Thanks for the replies!  I'll change the bushings and see what I can do with the collar.  I like the grease channel idea and it's good to see a source for a new one!  Any supplier recommendations for bushings?  Bronze?
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
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2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250

Offline flybox1

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2016, 10:47:13 AM »
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Offline Johnny340

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2016, 05:23:58 PM »
Yeah!
Kenosha_kid  $25

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282075118558

Perfect.  Thanks!
I see he has other goodies I need.  I'll bet you could answer if the intake rubber boots are the same for the 1975 F model (F0?) as the F1 he has listed...which look to also be the same for all K models as well.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Honda-CB750-CB-750-Four-K0-K1-K2-K3-K4-K5-K6-F1-intake-manifolds-carb-holder-/281252745222?hash=item417bf85006
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
1981 CB650
1974 T-500
2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250

Offline drumstyx

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2016, 05:38:30 PM »
Just trust me on this and send it to Hondaman. I bought those bushings from Kenosha kid....the clearance was nowhere near correct for the collar. Which is probably no fault of the seller, just that the tolerance is very small, and collars (especially of that type) wear out very fast.

Also, it looks like you've mushroomed on end while beating it out.

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2016, 06:09:26 PM »


      I agree, Hondaman is the way to go, with this. That being said, guess I'd better paratice what I preach. So, as soon as I get into my build, I will be getting with him and going from there.  ;)
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2016, 09:00:52 PM »
My Kenosha bushings for my F0 were fine. Sorry you had a problem. I was careful in removing the original bushings in my NOS swing arm. I left the bronze bushings in the freezer overnight to constrict them slightly for easier fitment. I lubed the parts and easily tapped them in with a block of wood and a small hammer being sure to keep them squared up. I cleaned up the collar with very fine sandpaper. All is good. No play, easy movement. If your collar is SO worn out by rubbing against phenolic (plastic) bushings vs bushings worn you should replace it but it's not likely that the plastic is going to wear the metal that badly.

The intake rubbers for the K0 through F1 are identical.

Kenosha aka Frank Jahnke also has nice sets of stainless 6mm allen head bolts for  the engine cases. BIG improvement and cheap. No more Phillip/JIS head screws to strip.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline markreimer

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 09:19:21 PM »
Agreed, change them to bronze. I got mine from here:

http://www.cb750supply.com/products/3/suspension/57/swing-arm-bushings-steering-dampers


Punching the old ones out was a major pain, I think I had to use a hacksaw blade to cut a chunk out first, but the new ones went in without too much effort. I also took the opportunity to pull out the Japanese grease zerk on the swingarm collar and thread in a regular American style one, so a typical grease gun would fit. That was a great and super easy mod. Now I can force grease in and see it squish out both ends once each season and know things are good and slippery in there

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2016, 10:19:54 PM »
Whatever you decide to do, be safe: assemble your new parts DRY (no grease) and install the arm, then torque it to 25 ft-lbs. Then, with the bike on the centerstand, alternately push-pull the rear axle slot side-to-side. It if moves more than 0.004", you're in trouble.

That's not a typo: 0.0040" is the OEM spec for the new parts. Worn-out is just 0.080" side-to-side movement, unless you believe in the first K0 sandcast manuals that showed 3mm (0.120") side-to-side, later ones were tighter. The reason: when the arm can wiggle side-to-side, this movement is amplified by the entire length of the frame to the steering head, where it results in a speed wobble. You can perhaps write to one of our members (Matt, found in my book, PM me if interested in his details) to ask him what happened to him last year after he decided 0.060" was OK, and went down on I-70 in the Sheridan Lake Curve at 60 MPH (in traffic!) because of said speed wobble... :(  He brought me his swingarm last summer, after his bones healed and he began the rebuild of the whole bike.

Those of you who know me well understand why I am so "adamant" about this topic: a man was killed "on my watch" in 1973 by a swingarm that wobbled only 0.040" side-to-side when the bike went into a wobble at 60 MPH: be smart. ;)

HM
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline markreimer

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2016, 07:30:10 AM »
Hondaman, can you explain the reason for installing them dry? I replaced mine right when I bought my cb750 six years ago as I had visible slop in the swing arm. I can't remember if I put them in dry or not, but I'm pretty sure I would have given them a light coating of grease and then pressed them in. I still have zero play in my swing arm (just checked) after maybe...15-20,000 miles.

Offline Johnny340

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2016, 10:15:27 AM »
Whatever you decide to do, be safe: assemble your new parts DRY (no grease) and install the arm, then torque it to 25 ft-lbs. Then, with the bike on the centerstand, alternately push-pull the rear axle slot side-to-side. It if moves more than 0.004", you're in trouble.

That's not a typo: 0.0040" is the OEM spec for the new parts. Worn-out is just 0.080" side-to-side movement, unless you believe in the first K0 sandcast manuals that showed 3mm (0.120") side-to-side, later ones were tighter. The reason: when the arm can wiggle side-to-side, this movement is amplified by the entire length of the frame to the steering head, where it results in a speed wobble. You can perhaps write to one of our members (Matt, found in my book, PM me if interested in his details) to ask him what happened to him last year after he decided 0.060" was OK, and went down on I-70 in the Sheridan Lake Curve at 60 MPH (in traffic!) because of said speed wobble... :(  He brought me his swingarm last summer, after his bones healed and he began the rebuild of the whole bike.

Those of you who know me well understand why I am so "adamant" about this topic: a man was killed "on my watch" in 1973 by a swingarm that wobbled only 0.040" side-to-side when the bike went into a wobble at 60 MPH: be smart. ;)

HM

Thanks for the info.  I was completely sold on sending it to you but now I'm not sure if I need to.  I shined up my collar with 600 grit and it came up like new (It's not mushroomed btw) so I cleaned everything up and assembled it dry to test with only 25 pounds of torque.  With the bushings dry (black, I assume is stock plastic) and the bike cinched down to a motorcycle lift, I can't perceive any lateral movement in the swingarm at all.  How do you even see .004"?  Is there a way to measure/check properly that I'm missing?
Could these have been recently replaced with stock bushings to be this tight?  I have no history on the bike but with 35,000 miles on it I'd expect this to be sloppy and obvious.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 05:18:38 PM by Johnny340 »
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
1981 CB650
1974 T-500
2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250

Offline firebane

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 02:38:22 PM »
Whatever you decide to do, be safe: assemble your new parts DRY (no grease) and install the arm, then torque it to 25 ft-lbs. Then, with the bike on the centerstand, alternately push-pull the rear axle slot side-to-side. It if moves more than 0.004", you're in trouble.

That's not a typo: 0.0040" is the OEM spec for the new parts. Worn-out is just 0.080" side-to-side movement, unless you believe in the first K0 sandcast manuals that showed 3mm (0.120") side-to-side, later ones were tighter. The reason: when the arm can wiggle side-to-side, this movement is amplified by the entire length of the frame to the steering head, where it results in a speed wobble. You can perhaps write to one of our members (Matt, found in my book, PM me if interested in his details) to ask him what happened to him last year after he decided 0.060" was OK, and went down on I-70 in the Sheridan Lake Curve at 60 MPH (in traffic!) because of said speed wobble... :(  He brought me his swingarm last summer, after his bones healed and he began the rebuild of the whole bike.

Those of you who know me well understand why I am so "adamant" about this topic: a man was killed "on my watch" in 1973 by a swingarm that wobbled only 0.040" side-to-side when the bike went into a wobble at 60 MPH: be smart. ;)

HM

Thanks for the info.  I was completely sold on sending it to you but now I'm not sure if I need to.  I shined up my collar with 600 grit and it came up like new (It's not mushroomed btw) so I cleaned everything up and assembled it dry to test with only 25 pounds of torque.  With the bushings dry (black, I assume is stock plastic) and the bike cinched down to a motorcycle lift, I can't perceive any lateral movement in the swingarm at all.  How do you even see .004"?  Is there a way to measure/check properly that I'm missing?
Could these have been recently replaced with stock bushings to be this tight?  I have no history on the bike but with 35,000 miles on it I'd expect this to be sloppy and obvious.

Support the swing arm with no tension using wood block, jacks, steel jacks whatever you have. Get a dial indicator and push the swing arm all the way over in one direction then zero out the indicator. Pull the swing arm as far as you can the other way.

Less than .004? Your good. More than .004 not good (According to hondaman)

Offline Johnny340

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2016, 08:47:45 AM »

Support the swing arm with no tension using wood block, jacks, steel jacks whatever you have. Get a dial indicator and push the swing arm all the way over in one direction then zero out the indicator. Pull the swing arm as far as you can the other way.

Less than .004? Your good. More than .004 not good (According to hondaman)

Thanks. I'll try that when I'm back from vacation.  I have to secure the bike down better.  I'll probably end up sending it in to HondaMan because it's apart anyway and his setup looks proper.
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
1981 CB650
1974 T-500
2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2016, 07:07:07 PM »
Hondaman, can you explain the reason for installing them dry? I replaced mine right when I bought my cb750 six years ago as I had visible slop in the swing arm. I can't remember if I put them in dry or not, but I'm pretty sure I would have given them a light coating of grease and then pressed them in. I still have zero play in my swing arm (just checked) after maybe...15-20,000 miles.

The purpose of assembling them dry is merely for "the test" to see how much slop is at the rear axle. After that, I disassemble and grease, reassemble and fully inject grease: it's just a "test" step". ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2016, 07:21:36 PM »
Whatever you decide to do, be safe: assemble your new parts DRY (no grease) and install the arm, then torque it to 25 ft-lbs. Then, with the bike on the centerstand, alternately push-pull the rear axle slot side-to-side. It if moves more than 0.004", you're in trouble.

That's not a typo: 0.0040" is the OEM spec for the new parts. Worn-out is just 0.080" side-to-side movement, unless you believe in the first K0 sandcast manuals that showed 3mm (0.120") side-to-side, later ones were tighter. The reason: when the arm can wiggle side-to-side, this movement is amplified by the entire length of the frame to the steering head, where it results in a speed wobble. You can perhaps write to one of our members (Matt, found in my book, PM me if interested in his details) to ask him what happened to him last year after he decided 0.060" was OK, and went down on I-70 in the Sheridan Lake Curve at 60 MPH (in traffic!) because of said speed wobble... :(  He brought me his swingarm last summer, after his bones healed and he began the rebuild of the whole bike.

Those of you who know me well understand why I am so "adamant" about this topic: a man was killed "on my watch" in 1973 by a swingarm that wobbled only 0.040" side-to-side when the bike went into a wobble at 60 MPH: be smart. ;)

HM

Thanks for the info.  I was completely sold on sending it to you but now I'm not sure if I need to.  I shined up my collar with 600 grit and it came up like new (It's not mushroomed btw) so I cleaned everything up and assembled it dry to test with only 25 pounds of torque.  With the bushings dry (black, I assume is stock plastic) and the bike cinched down to a motorcycle lift, I can't perceive any lateral movement in the swingarm at all.  How do you even see .004"?  Is there a way to measure/check properly that I'm missing?
Could these have been recently replaced with stock bushings to be this tight?  I have no history on the bike but with 35,000 miles on it I'd expect this to be sloppy and obvious.


This isn't unusual: here's the 'inside skinny' about the post-1974 swingarm system on these bikes: beginning during the K4, Honda removed the grease grooves from the collar and the expensively-machine swingarm bolt with grease zerks and drilled passages, to save $$ as they were fighting with the Kawi 900/1000 in the price arena then. Instead, they made interference-fit collars (bigger OD than before, by 0.0004-0.0008" larger at the bearings) and removed the little grease felt seals, using instead a flanged phenolic bushing in place of all their previously good parts (but expensive). This new collar is actually 0.0004" larger OD on the outer half of each bearing, divided by the groove in the midst: the idea was said to be that if the owner pushed grease hard enough into the center grease zerk in the swingarm, it would ooze up to the groove, and when riding it would get hot enough to melt and move toward the outer bearing where the tightness comes from.Not a GREAT theory, but that was it...

In real life, few owners greased these arms, ever. I did on bikes that came to my hands, and those lasted a long time, if being hard to grease. Usually, it only worked if the big bolt was loosened and the arm worked up and down during the greasing.

The lack of grease then causes the phenolic to ride hard on the collar, when dry. Phenolic is sort of a bearing with the steel of the collar, but with enough grease it becomes spongy, too, over time. This, plus the scoring that often grinds away the phenolic over time, causes the looseness. Most often today, what we see if the grease got hard form sitting 30 years, then the arm refuses to accept grease at all. Also, phenolic absorbs moisture from the air: in the early designs Honda sealed the outside with the felt seal to keep this away, while on the later one the rubber-lipped end cups lose effectiveness and let moisture reach the edges of the phenoil flange, which wicks it trhough very quickly. This makes the collars rust, especially if idle. I have several arms here that will have to have the whole works bored out, as the rust in the phenolic has gripped both the swingarm (outside) and the collars (inside) so that they cannot be disassembled: one of these recently came from Kickstart's own 750 when he was building it!

The main difference with switching to bronze bushings (besides their enormously long life) if the major increase in hard-over frame stiffness when cornering. The overall sensation form them is that the bike seems to have lost 50 lbs of weight, making itself more nimble. Tapered steering head bearings do this again, and the 2 together makes the bikes wholly different from the way they were when stock. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Johnny340

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Re: Should I change these swingarm bushings?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2016, 06:43:22 PM »

This isn't unusual: here's the 'inside skinny' about the post-1974 swingarm system on these bikes: beginning during the K4, Honda removed the grease grooves from the collar and the expensively-machine swingarm bolt with grease zerks and drilled passages, to save $$ as they were fighting with the Kawi 900/1000 in the price arena then. Instead, they made interference-fit collars (bigger OD than before, by 0.0004-0.0008" larger at the bearings) and removed the little grease felt seals, using instead a flanged phenolic bushing in place of all their previously good parts (but expensive). This new collar is actually 0.0004" larger OD on the outer half of each bearing, divided by the groove in the midst: the idea was said to be that if the owner pushed grease hard enough into the center grease zerk in the swingarm, it would ooze up to the groove, and when riding it would get hot enough to melt and move toward the outer bearing where the tightness comes from.Not a GREAT theory, but that was it...

In real life, few owners greased these arms, ever. I did on bikes that came to my hands, and those lasted a long time, if being hard to grease. Usually, it only worked if the big bolt was loosened and the arm worked up and down during the greasing.

The lack of grease then causes the phenolic to ride hard on the collar, when dry. Phenolic is sort of a bearing with the steel of the collar, but with enough grease it becomes spongy, too, over time. This, plus the scoring that often grinds away the phenolic over time, causes the looseness. Most often today, what we see if the grease got hard form sitting 30 years, then the arm refuses to accept grease at all. Also, phenolic absorbs moisture from the air: in the early designs Honda sealed the outside with the felt seal to keep this away, while on the later one the rubber-lipped end cups lose effectiveness and let moisture reach the edges of the phenoil flange, which wicks it trhough very quickly. This makes the collars rust, especially if idle. I have several arms here that will have to have the whole works bored out, as the rust in the phenolic has gripped both the swingarm (outside) and the collars (inside) so that they cannot be disassembled: one of these recently came from Kickstart's own 750 when he was building it!

The main difference with switching to bronze bushings (besides their enormously long life) if the major increase in hard-over frame stiffness when cornering. The overall sensation form them is that the bike seems to have lost 50 lbs of weight, making itself more nimble. Tapered steering head bearings do this again, and the 2 together makes the bikes wholly different from the way they were when stock. ;)

Thank you for that detailed explanation.  That makes sense.  I would think that this arrangement shown here could be counter productive for a rigid rear end compared to those bronze bushings:
http://4into1.com/swing-arm-bearing-shaft-kit-honda-cb500-cb550-cb750/

I have the tapered steering head bearings ready for the rebuild.  Could you send me your contact number so I can arrange to send you my swingarm?
edit: Just found your website details..
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 06:51:12 PM by Johnny340 »
1975 CB750F0 Super Sport
1972 CB750K2
1981 CB650
1974 T-500
2003 GSXR750
2006 YZ250