Author Topic: So I AM burning oil! (Still) (Read 10457 times)

Davez134 · « **on:** November 19, 2016, 03:55:18 PM »

So, I finally got an answer to the where's my oil going thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160121.0.html
I am burning oil in my number 1 cylinder

. I noticed a small amount of smoke on startup about 2 weeks ago, but it disappeared quickly. I just thought it was rich upon startup, didn't even think it was from oil. Today when I started it up there was smoke again, but it did not go away. I pulled my plugs and saw this...

The one on the left is just for comparison, cylinder number 4 that I know for sure is not smoking. The one on the right is cylinder number 1. It looks like oil on the plug. It only happens on startup. When the bike is hot after a ride, I do not notice any smoke.

I went for a ride, got it warmed up, have it throttle and did not notice smoke in my rear view. Could someone please point me in the right direction as to where the oil is coming from? Rings? Valves or seals? Compression is 160-164 on all 4 cylinders. If any more information is needed let me know, never had anything leak oil before

540nova · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2016, 04:05:47 PM »

On an unrelated note, the plug gaps look huge.

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Davez134 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2016, 04:10:22 PM »

Quote from: 540nova on November 19, 2016, 04:05:47 PM

On an unrelated note, the plug gaps look huge.

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May be the angle of the pic. They are per the manual.

Gene · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2016, 04:12:09 PM »

Make sure you're not just running crazy rich on #1 first.

i.e make sure it's oil not gas.
If you're getting oil into the combustion chamber I would check piston rings first - but hell. I don't know what I'm talking about half the time.

If oil is getting in there it has to be coming from the bottom. Just a theory.

Davez134 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2016, 05:44:53 PM »

Quote from: Gene on November 19, 2016, 04:12:09 PM

Make sure you're not just running crazy rich on #1 first.

i.e make sure it's oil not gas.
If you're getting oil into the combustion chamber I would check piston rings first - but hell. I don't know what I'm talking about half the time.

If oil is getting in there it has to be coming from the bottom. Just a theory.

Im pretty sure its oil. When I was tuning the bike and mixture was crazy rich, the plugs were super dark and sooty but not wet. That coupled with the smoke coming only from that cylinder AND me losing oil over time lead me to believe its not gas.

As far as where its coming from, I only have a guess.

Davez134 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2016, 05:50:33 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on November 19, 2016, 04:46:52 PM

A leakdown test is the best pursuit. I'd expect top end and not rings if it's only at start-up and not at all after the bike gets warm. Guides or seals (does the 750 head use intake or exhaust seals? Never toyed with one so I have no clue).

Edit: never mind, I looked it up and they're on both. So they would be my first target of suspicion (seals).

I have a picture of when I got the head back from Mike Reick, and it appears both intake and exhaust have seals on them. I'm hoping its a bad seal and only a bad seal (as in the valve and guide are ok. My optimistic theory on why i think it may be a valve seal and not a ring is that when stopped after a ride, the oil leaks into the combustion chamber past the seal. Then on startup it burns off and can be seen. Does this sound right?

scottly · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2016, 06:07:24 PM »

The early 750s did not have seals on the exhaust guides. When the motor sits, oil can seep down a valve that's open into the combustion chamber, but when running and warmed up the oil from the guides is blown into the hot pipes, where it burns to produce less smoke. My K1 has always smoked a bit on start-up, even after replacing guides and intake seals.
To determine if intake seals are leaking, coast down-hill in gear for a distance with the throttle closed, then roll the throttle on; with the throttle closed, the intake valves will be opening into a vacuum, sucking the oil past the guide into the chamber, resulting in smoke.

Davez134 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2016, 07:23:15 PM »

We will know soon. I'm going to do a leak down test Monday or Tuesday (whenever I get home from work) to rule out rings or valve seats. Then I'll pull can cover and have a look at the seals. Yay for frame kit!

ekpent · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2016, 07:49:04 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on November 19, 2016, 06:19:20 PM

Quote from: scottly on November 19, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
The early 750s did not have seals on the exhaust guides. When the motor sits, oil can seep down a valve that's open into the combustion chamber, but when running and warmed up the oil from the guides is blown into the hot pipes, where it burns to produce less smoke. My K1 has always smoked a bit on start-up, even after replacing guides and intake seals.
To determine if intake seals are leaking, coast down-hill in gear for a distance with the throttle closed, then roll the throttle on; with the throttle closed, the intake valves will be opening into a vacuum, sucking the oil past the guide into the chamber, resulting in smoke.
His bike is a k2 and the parts fiche clearly shows seals on both intake and exhaust. Is this incorrect for his model year?

Yes I believe that is correct for the K2, K0 and K1 are different .

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2016, 01:45:16 AM »

Quote from: Davez134 on November 19, 2016, 07:23:15 PM

We will know soon. I'm going to do a leak down test Monday or Tuesday (whenever I get home from work) to rule out rings or valve seats. Then I'll pull can cover and have a look at the seals. Yay for frame kit!

Just rub the inside of the rear of the muffler with your finger, if its rich it will be dark and sooty, if there's any oil being burned it will be greasy and black...

Davez134 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2016, 06:08:34 PM »

On a somewhat related note, has anyone removed a valve spring with the head installed? I've searched and found "ideas" but no results yet. I'm assuming I can make a tool with a forked end and use something stationary as a fulcrum, but not quite sure yet.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2016, 11:06:06 PM »

You can do it with a rope stuffed into the bore of the cylinder to fill the bore and rotate slightly to compress the rope tight against the valve. There are a few methods of dissassembly from there...
But, unless you have a frame kit installed it is very difficult to navigate the cover off if needed on the 750. I don't remember from the 750 threads I have read if the cover can come off with the motor in the frame without the frame kit or if you can get to everything if it can't be removed. Impossible to remove the head without the frame kit you are forced to pull the motor.

PeWe · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2016, 06:04:49 AM »

Interesting to know the root cause.
Bore has issues? Or bores with pistons, rings were fixed recently?
Ring end gaps too tight?

Davez134 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2016, 09:03:09 AM »

Quote from: PeWe on November 21, 2016, 06:04:49 AM

Interesting to know the root cause.
Bore has issues? Or bores with pistons, rings were fixed recently?
Ring end gaps too tight?

I'm not thinking its related to the cylinders at all. Again, I'm pretty sure it's a valve seal. I'll know more after leak down test and removing valve cover. Just stuck at work till Wednesday

Davez134 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2016, 06:04:25 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on November 21, 2016, 03:31:46 AM

Quote from: RAF122S on November 20, 2016, 11:06:06 PM
You can do it with a rope stuffed into the bore of the cylinder to fill the bore and rotate slightly to compress the rope tight against the valve.
This. Then, you can lay a rag over the retainer, place a large socket on top of it, then a quick rap with a rubber mallet will usually dislodge the keepers. The rag also helps prevent anything from "shooting across the garage"

I read this and thought, ok cool yeah that would work. Then I thought crap, I have to get it back on too

RevDoc · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM »

Dave, save yourself a lot of stress and get one of these, Lisle 36050 Valve Keeper Remover and Installer Kit. They are on E-Bay & Amazon. Had a 550 that was showing the very same diagnostic symptoms as your bike. Pulled the cover and the valve stem seals were originals and hard as plastic. Got the Remover tool and it was a simple breeze to pull the keepers. Might have been about 1 1/2 hrs. total. Pull all the plugs so you are not fighting compression, roll each piston up to top as you work on that cylinder and no problem with the valve dropping into the cylinder. The magnetic grabber for the keepers is a great help. But, play it safe and stuff a rag in the oil return galleys!

Davez134 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2016, 10:59:49 AM »

Nice, I like it. Always down to buy another tool!

markreimer · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2016, 11:55:58 AM »

Do you usually park on the side stand? Just a thought here... if you have it on the side stand, leaning to the left with cylinder #1 at the 'low' spot, the oil will pool around that side of the head and possibly leak down into the cylinder, burning when you start the bike up. Does the bike always smoke, or only on startup? If it clears off shortly after starting, it's likely a valve guide seal. Easy fix.

You could try parking on the center stand (if you have one) for a few rides and see how it compares.

BMW boxer engines have a the same issue, with one cylinder way lower than the other on a side stand. It's good practice to park it on the centre stand in order to ensure you don't have oil-starved #3/#4 tappets when you fire it up.

Davez134 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2016, 01:06:29 PM »

Thanks for the reply mark. I usually park it on the center stand, but sometimes do park it on the side stand. It does not always smoke, just on startup.

evanphi · « **Reply #19 on:** November 23, 2016, 07:08:10 AM »

Quote from: RevDoc on November 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM

Dave, save yourself a lot of stress and get one of these, Lisle 36050 Valve Keeper Remover and Installer Kit. They are on E-Bay & Amazon. Had a 550 that was showing the very same diagnostic symptoms as your bike. Pulled the cover and the valve stem seals were originals and hard as plastic. Got the Remover tool and it was a simple breeze to pull the keepers. Might have been about 1 1/2 hrs. total. Pull all the plugs so you are not fighting compression, roll each piston up to top as you work on that cylinder and no problem with the valve dropping into the cylinder. The magnetic grabber for the keepers is a great help. But, play it safe and stuff a rag in the oil return galleys!

Neat little tool! I wonder if it could still be used with a 750 still in the frame, though...

Davez134 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 23, 2016, 08:38:06 AM »

Quote from: evanphi on November 23, 2016, 07:08:10 AM

Quote from: RevDoc on November 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM
Dave, save yourself a lot of stress and get one of these, Lisle 36050 Valve Keeper Remover and Installer Kit. They are on E-Bay & Amazon. Had a 550 that was showing the very same diagnostic symptoms as your bike. Pulled the cover and the valve stem seals were originals and hard as plastic. Got the Remover tool and it was a simple breeze to pull the keepers. Might have been about 1 1/2 hrs. total. Pull all the plugs so you are not fighting compression, roll each piston up to top as you work on that cylinder and no problem with the valve dropping into the cylinder. The magnetic grabber for the keepers is a great help. But, play it safe and stuff a rag in the oil return galleys!

Neat little tool! I wonder if it could still be used with a 750 still in the frame, though...

I ordered on Amazon, will be here Friday and I'll post results. I plan to remove valve cover today and have a look at my seals as well.

evanphi · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2016, 08:59:32 AM »

Quote from: Davez134 on November 23, 2016, 08:38:06 AM

Quote from: evanphi on November 23, 2016, 07:08:10 AM
Quote from: RevDoc on November 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM
Dave, save yourself a lot of stress and get one of these, Lisle 36050 Valve Keeper Remover and Installer Kit. They are on E-Bay & Amazon. Had a 550 that was showing the very same diagnostic symptoms as your bike. Pulled the cover and the valve stem seals were originals and hard as plastic. Got the Remover tool and it was a simple breeze to pull the keepers. Might have been about 1 1/2 hrs. total. Pull all the plugs so you are not fighting compression, roll each piston up to top as you work on that cylinder and no problem with the valve dropping into the cylinder. The magnetic grabber for the keepers is a great help. But, play it safe and stuff a rag in the oil return galleys!

Neat little tool! I wonder if it could still be used with a 750 still in the frame, though...

I ordered on Amazon, will be here Friday and I'll post results. I plan to remove valve cover today and have a look at my seals as well.

That would be great if you can update about doing it in the frame. I'm sure I'll need to do seals eventually.

RevDoc · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2016, 09:11:10 AM »

Evan, I haven't had occasion to tackle that project on a 750 in the frame yet but, as long as you can slide the rocker box cover
off it should work as easily as it did on the 550 I worked on.

markreimer · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2016, 09:52:50 AM »

What a cool tool! Am I correct in assuming it's only useful for removal though? You'd still need a conventional spring compressor for installing the keepers?

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markreimer · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2016, 09:57:36 AM »

Ah never mind I see in the video you can also install. Cool

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Author Topic: So I AM burning oil! (Still) (Read 10457 times)