Author Topic: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please  (Read 2481 times)

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Offline Scott S

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CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« on: November 08, 2016, 06:36:44 AM »
 Long post, but I'm going to try to give you as much information as possible.

 1971 CL350, brought back on the road after a long slumber. I put a couple hundred trouble free miles on it and then the clutch push rod seal blew out. Caught it early and repaired it. Seemingly, no damage done and still oil in the crankcase when I drained it.

 On the next ride after that, I noticed a stumble and even though I was only around 80 miles on that tank, it appeared I was running out of gas. On to reserve and filled it up. Made a couple of quick jaunts....about 4 miles each....and then stopped at a local bike night. Later, after sitting for a couple of hours, I was on my way home and the bike just sort of lost power and bogged and died. Still had lights, just....died. It was very hard to turn over by the button and sorta acted like a flat battery. I was TERRIFIED that I had caused some sort of damage from the oil seal incident and had soft seized it. Called my GF to grab the van and pushed it about 500 yards to a lighted area (I was out in the country and it was pitch black). As soon as I got there, I hit the button and it fired right back up.
 I checked the battery when I got home and it was ~12.1-12.2V, but that was to be expected. I was hitting the button trying to start it AND I pushed it a few hundred yards with the key/lights on so I wouldn't get run over.

 Put it on the charger and went back to normal life, work, etc. The next time I tried it, she started instantly. Took her for a spin around the neighborhood and about 7-8 miles into it, same symptoms. Just sorta lost power and died. Almost like I ran out of gas. Opened gas gap to check for a vacuum lock....no "whoosh". This time, it would crank over but no start. Occasional pop from the exhaust. Luckily, I was close to home (and uphill) and coasted back to the garage. Maybe....MAYBE...5-7 minutes after this happened I was able to check the voltage and the battery still had 12.6V. Still not bad, since I had been hitting the starter button (tried kicking, too...no luck).
 Opened the drain screw on the RH carb (accessible around the Scrambler pipes) and fuel came out. Pulled plugs and they look perfect. Laid plugs on the head and saw spark. Checked points and there's no oil on them and there was spark. Checked compression and got ~125 PSI on both cylinders with my ancient gauge, as well as passing the "finger on the hole" test. Don't think it's a timing issue because it starts to easily and runs fine when it's running.
 So.....spark, fuel and compression. Guess I'll order some tune up parts since the caps, points and condenser are probably original to the bike.

 Went to drain the tank for removal and noticed that the bung that feeds the LH carb didn't flow at first. Then, the flow would kind of come and go when I moved the lever. Got both bungs draining (aftermarket petcock, BTW) and emptied the tank. Pulled the sediment bowl and it's basically clean. Full of fuel and almost no particles. Pulled the lever and blew out all lines and flipped the biscuit. No smoking gun in there...
 Installed new condensers. Checked coils. Trimmed wires back 1/4" and installed new caps. Results below:

 LH Coil
 Yellow > B/W = 4.1 ohms
 B/W to plug lead (no cap) = 8.98 ohms
 With new NGK cap installed = 13.5 ohms

RH Coil
Bl > B/W = 3.9 ohms
B/W > plug lead (no cap) = 8.82 ohms
With cap installed = 13.38 ohms

 So far, I see nothing wrong. I have new points but not sure when I'll have time to get them installed AND timed. I'm tempted to put the tank back on, fill her up and see what happens.
 Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?
 (Disclaimer: Been texting with CalJ and he says it's the condensers. I hope he's right. I really ought to muster up the gumption to install the new points and time it, too)
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2016, 06:51:27 AM »
 I'm thinking that I'll install the tank and get gas back in it and do the points this coming weekend when I have time to set the gap and timing just right. Do you see ANYTHING that says "Wait....don't put the tank on and put gas back in it yet!"?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2016, 12:37:19 PM »
 More info and updates:


 The air filters are new....maybe 300  miles on them, if that. Probably less. I rebuilt the carbs. I also adjusted the valves before the initial start up....also less than 300 miles ago.

 I used that particular compression tester because it screws in to the spark plug holes and I could do it by myself that day. Today, I used my other tester because I had some help in the garage. On a cold engine, charge battery, throttle held wide open, I get 155 PSI.
 

 I synced the carbs when I got the engine running....less than 300 miles ago.

 I got the new points installed and am going through the fiddly process of timing them. I have to work night shift tonight and may have to come back to this. While the old points were out, I moved the advancer and it snaps back into place.
 I should have checked the valve adjustment while the tank was off but, again.....300 miles old.
 If  the tune up doesn't fix it, I'll suspect carb issues, even though the sediment bowl was clean, both float bowls have gas out of the drain screws, I set float height, etc., etc. etc. The plugs are NOT fuel fouled and I think the color looks just about perfect.

 I DID try to crank it with the new caps and condensers and the old points. No go.....just turned over and over until it backfired out the exhaust once. That's when I started installing the new points.


'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2016, 02:52:08 PM »
It seems you have been very thorough and I have no answers for you.  I had a cb350k3 a couple years ago that played similar tricks.  I never figured it out.  I had two untested theories that I never got around to testing before I moved it on...
1.  Coils failing when hot...I could never get he tank off fast enough to test scientifically because of the stupid fuel crossover tube.
2.   Notoriously crappy cam bearings allowing the camshaft to knock the points out of adjustment...if it was this you are basically screwed without finding a low mileage cylinder head or some very expensive machine work

My first bike was a rather used and abused cb350k4 and would do similar but would usually go a couple hundred miles before it needed a full tune up...that got old rather quickly but taught me a lot about old bikes...enough that I did not mess with them again for several years.  Now I mess with old bikes again happily...but no more cb350k's!
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Scott S

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2016, 03:33:02 PM »
 This bike has less than 4,000 original miles on it. I doubt the cam bearings are shot.
 I'm not really turned on by the 350 twins but the Scrambler pipes sucked me in. And now they're in the way for damn near any trouble shooting or maintenance!
 I'll figure it out and get it right, then sell BOTH of these Scramblers and build another 550!
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 01:47:05 AM »
This bike has less than 4,000 original miles on it. I doubt the cam bearings are shot.
think about the oiling system and then think again.  I have not heard of these twins lasting much more than 10-12,000 miles.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline tbpmusic

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 09:33:13 AM »

1.  Coils failing when hot...I could never get he tank off fast enough to test scientifically because of the stupid fuel crossover tube.


+10 on that - these coils are over 40 years old, and will act up when they get hot.

There's a small 6mm bolt (10mm wrench) in the cylinder head, just above and to the right of your point cover.
Remove this while running and you should see oil come out. If so, you're ok on the oil context, don't think you're seizing up.
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, then it's an electrical problem"

Bill Lane
 '71 CB450 Mutant/ '75 CB200/ '81 CM200/ '71 C70M

Offline Scott S

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 08:20:11 AM »
Finished getting the points installed and timed today and she fired right up. I hesitate to declare victory just yet, but after 5 miles of riding around the neighborhood and sticking close to home, she seems cured. It even feels peppier at mid and higher RPM, and I was able to bring the idle down from 2,000 to about 1,800 RPM and it seems steadier and sounds better.
 Checked battery voltage after the (admittedly short) ride and it was still at 12.61V.
 
 The weird thing is, I tried it with the new condensers and caps but using the old points and it wouldn't start. New points in the equation and it seems to run better than it ever has. Keep your fingers crossed for me!
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline use2b

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 03:24:26 AM »
the only thing that was close to this on my CL350 was corrosion in the fuse holder for ignition.
it had a clam type plastic holder for one of those long glass fuses .  after cleaning it up and bending the clamp part for a stronger bite my problem was solved.  make sure you have a solid connection to your ignition fuse

good luck

Offline Scott S

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 03:58:13 AM »
 That's another very good suggestion and easy to check.  BUT....I still had lights and such. I'll still check it out, though.

 I haven't had time to ride any since my last update, but it sure seemed to run better after the new points and condensers. I hope that's all it was.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline tbpmusic

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Re: CL350 trouble shooting: Check my work, please
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 10:07:09 AM »
Here's a terrific post from VJMOG - put a stress test on your old coils and see how they are after about 10-15 minutes.
Great cheep and easy technique........

http://www.vjmog.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11500#68286
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, then it's an electrical problem"

Bill Lane
 '71 CB450 Mutant/ '75 CB200/ '81 CM200/ '71 C70M