Topic: CB 750 AMEN Chopper

[Anglo]

Message sent Stikman, cheers for any help
The bikes backstory? The guy I got it off told me he bought it as a basket case back in 2014, has had it sat around for the last 2 years and built it up over the last 3 months to clear space (hence the two spare engines I guess)
Terry, buying a spare frame would be great, but I don't really want to blow $500+ on something I can avoid... Putting the project off for 3 months is really not what I want but if its 3 months and $25 or this month and $500 I'm ready to play the waiting game

[BPellerine]

reg swapping would work here,but it is inspection that is the problem in ns,unless you can get antique plates for it then no inspection needed as long as you own the bike.to get antique plates you have to get a certified mec to sign off on it which takes you back to square one.bill

[Anglo]

Okay this thread has slowly been drifting down the front page, time for an update!

Following a helpful phonecall to a forum member the VIN number issue has been retired for the time being. He reasoned seeing as how I already have the Registration filled in for an engine number off one of the spare engines, its easier to get a VIN printed with that registered number than it is to go through the whole tedious inspection merry-go-round of getting a new VIN. Seeing as how the frame is custom (To ICBC anyway) it having an unusual frame number won't cause any worries, and if it did they would've questioned it when it was first registered as that, 3 years and 2 owners ago.

So, theres a guy in Switzerland who prints replica AMEN VIN plates for about 50 bucks, for an extra 12 he'll engrave whatever you want on it (hes on ebay under the name Choueir, does lots of period accurate VIN plates). I've sent off for a plate to be made up with the number on the reggie, should be hear before Christmas   

Next Question: where is the best place to attach it on the frame? I know people usually go for headset, but I thought I'd ask. Second question, as the headset looks clean of holes for rivets (they may be under mountains of paint mind), is there a non-hole drilling way of getting the plate stuck to the bike? Brazed on perhaps?

Cheers guys. This should get a little more interesting now, the engine will be coming out soon!

[754]

The BCS tags were rivetted on about 5-6 inches below the neck.
Amen frames never had number or data plates.
 There should be an Amen number, think its on the middle front of the neck..
 Keep in mind motor and frame numbers differ on Hondas, does not need a trained eye to figure that out.

[Anglo]

It doesn't, Vin Numbers are 14 numbers long and engine numbers aren't. I'll take that chance though, even if a cop who knows what hes looking at if I get pulled over or whatever the paperwork is all there, and has been there for 3 years.

[stikman]

As long as the vin on the frame matches the vin on the reg and you're not doing anything nefarious like using the vin on multiple bikes or using a bogus vin, it should be no issues.  It seems there was no vin stamped on the the frame so ICBC used the engine serial as the vin.  Transferring the vin from the engine to the frame would actually be doing everyone a favor in this particular case imho.

[754]

ICBC issued BCS numbers for custom frames, far as I know , they still do.. Will find out in a day or two.

[Anglo]

Okie Dokie, Payment sent to the fella to print the vins, he immediately sends me a message back saying the 4-6 business days is probably going to be more like 16-20 business days 'due to the season'. I told him seasons are rather easy to predict, and if he knew Christmas was coming he should have planned ahead and mentioned it in the advert. He replied (Almost viciously in my opinion) with the photo below, minus the white bits  So I guess thats gonna take a while longer than planned, but no major worries there.

Now the Vin is sorted, I can get started on pulling the engine. Can anyone direct me to a good walk-through of doing this? I've got a small Honda toolkit which I 'forgot' to add to the Goldwing sale, other than that I'm tool-less. I've got some friends who've offered me use of their sprocket set over the winter as their garage isn't insulated (I didn't have the heart to tell them my garages' roof isn't even fully connected, making it more like a big wooden Gazebo then a garage), what else am I likely to need?

Cheers, as always.

[Terry in Australia]

Ha ha, tis the season to get your pooch screwed mate, I've been furtively buying parts on eBay for my VTR1000 "Naked" build, and already some of the delivery dates are very close to when I'll be returning to work after a months annual leave, and I don't go on leave for another week!

Anyhoo, yes, you need a good metric socket set, (8mm to 17mm is a good size) and since Amen are American, I imagine all their fasteners are Imperial, so at least an adjustable wrench for that lot. A ring/open end spanner set, (8-17mm) a pair of pointy nose pliers, some phillips head and flat tip screwdrivers, a ballpein hammer and some metric allen wrenches, if your engine has any allen bolts fitted, a sharp knife is good to have, and after that, the world's your lobster.

Early Honda tool kits weren't real good, so only use that crap in an emergency. Cheers, Terry.

[Anglo]

Fantastic update!
So when this guy I was buying the plate off (Choueir) sent me that picture, I replied
''I picked your advert as it promised 4-6 days shipping. If you knew it was going to be later because its December you should have changed the advert. I may leave this in my feedback''
Perhaps a little harsh, but in fairness if he advertised 4-6 days delivery and he knew that wasn't gonna happen off the bat then he should've changed the ad.
In response I got a refund from Paypal and an email from him saying he doesn't respond to blackmail!   

So back to square one on ordering that. I know its not entirely relevant, just irritated me a bit that he would get shirty about getting the service I paid for.

Terry, all sounds good. Theres a couple of Stanley tool kits going fairly cheap near where I live that're metric, think I'll just need to get a good knife and a couple of strong straps to hold the thing down while I'm playing with it.

[stikman]

That sucks about the VIN printing, mate.  There's always the direct-to-the-neck approach.

[754]

 Man that guy is high priced, see what he charges for a 3 mm drill and some rivets..

[Anglo]

Okay gang
A little bit of suckering up to the Swiss guy and hes relented, the Vin plates are coming back. So, the most boring bit over lets get on with it. Pulling the engine slideshow commence! 

So, starting with pulling the pipes off, came off remarkably easy. Action Shot of my mate helping while I sit back and take pictures


Step 2, let the bike have a little wee 


Pic of the front of the engine while we waited for it to drain


Tanks off. Makes it look much much longer... and a fair bit more attractive in my eyes at least


Condensors off...


And looking at how nerfed the HT cables are probably never to go back on. I'm amazed it ran like this!


I set out with the idea of hanging on to as much as the wiring as possible... but this stuff is a bad joke. Note the electrical tape holding the harness together... Whelp, theres another going in the bin. Maybe $100 for a new one, not so bad I guess.


Next off, the oil tank. This photo represents maybe an hour and a half of faffing around trying to drain the thing 

Again I loved the look of this oil tank and was pretty set on keeping it, but while we were draining it the inside is gummed up and rusted  I might try cleaning it, but its pretty nasty in there  tried to take a photo but you can't really see it


Carbs came off without comment, and I forgot to take a picture  So everything was off save the chain. Since we were there, I decided we should remove the chain from the sprocket so we can check out the teeth on it... I'm pretty glad I did. First off the side panel. My thoughts were 'it'll pull right off, the engines drained so it should just have a few dribbles left'...



Oh Well... At least we know the old gaskets were watertight

So off comes the chain cover and...

Oh.


With a little excavating from a screwdriver


Apoxy? Its tough stuff, like plastic. Neither me nor the guy helping me had ever seen it used like this in an engine before... then painted with some very thin very cheap paint. To be polite, oh darn.

I've come this far, we'd been working for about 3 hours at this point. The engine was getting pulled no matter what. so off comes the chain and sprocket


Carb inlets covered by a rag. More evidence of the crappy wiring, at this stage I knew it was all going in the scrap so I wasn't being careful with it. With a huff, wheeze and a stretching of backs-

The engine is free! I put the covers and whatnot back on, plugged up all the holes and put it under the bike cover, wrapped tight with some elastic cables.

The mother stands exhausted following the successful birthing of an engine. This will be a hard winter for her.


And thats all the pictures I took. The big question now is what to do with the solid plastic plastered on the case? I'm 100% sure that its consigning the engine to the graveyard, as it must be covering a crack of some sort... but if it is why did the engine still run relatively smooth when started up? and what could cause a crack? My mind is telling me you won't know till you chip it off and see whats underneath... unless you guys have any better advice.

Hopefully 

[stikman]

That's common on these motors.  Broken chain busts a hole in the aluminum case.  Likely JB Welded up.  If you leave it alone it should be fine, it's a common fix.

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, very common mate, I've got at least one engine in my garage with similar damage. It won't hurt to chip it out and assess the damage though, a couple of engines I've had like that have the broken inside pieces rubbing on the output shaft gear, which does a pretty good job of milling the aluminium, sending shards of alloy through the oil pump, oil tank and blocking tiny oil ways to the top end, blocking oil flow and cooking the engine. Cheers, Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

 The problem with a repair like that is you don't know if it was done 20 years ago, or just before the bike was taken off the road, so just checking for particles in the oil wouldn't give me the confidence to leave it alone. 

You've got to decide your best course of action, but the "putting your head in the sand" and doing nothing would not be my preferred method, especially when you've got spare engines to play with.

[stikman]

Terry's opinion is fair enough, and understandable considering a bad experience in the past   As I said, I'd leave it alone and run it as is.  It's a risk (a minor one imho), but so is running a motor you haven't taken fully apart and inspected.  The line is drawn wherever the owner chooses and is comfortable enough with.  Hence the differing opinions.  There's no right answer.  The differing opinions are good, though, because they give you a wider range of view to base your final decision on.

[Anglo]

Cheers for the support guys, I've decided I'll stick with Stikmans advice. What I don't know can't hurt me  I'll clean off the nail varnish thats on it and put on some nice paint and leave it there. No evidence of oil leaking from it.

Okay, its Wednesday, its work on the bike day!
Started by taking off the breather cover


And off comes the Cam Cover. all looks pretty dandy!


As per the service manual, next off is the Cam Chain tensioner. The manual expends one sentance on this, but thanks to the wonderful electrics of the guy who last played with this engine...


Theres a rectifier bolt sat right in-front of it. Seems like great placement for a rectifier... right behind the cylinders where there'll be no airflow whatsoever...    Bolts off


You know what, I've been giving this guy a hard time. He's really an artist at times...


Anyway, cam chain tensioner looks good


But the screw going into it is bent and immobile... Not a worry, should be able to pinch a replacement off one of the spare engines


Rocker shaft bolts off, the keen eyed among you may notice...   

A flat head screw?!


And guess which of all the bolts I removed today, guess which one had cheesed threads? You got it, the flat head. That'll need replacing


Rockers, shafts, all that came off pretty easy


Off comes the camshaft


Then the delicate removal of the cylinder head nuts. After spending a while consulting the manual I got temporarily furious with it... look how tight these nuts are! 


I mean, how are you supposed to get any friggin tools in here?? Honda designers what the hell??     

On the brink of absolute insanity I was ready to call quits when I realised... the camshaft mounts (For want of a better name) come off with a couple of encouraging knocks with a rubber mallet...  I warned you all I was crap! With those off, the nuts came off in the pattern described in the manual...


A lock of knocking on the engine with the mallet with wooden blocks to save the fins and...


She rides! Tops are a little blackened but thats all good. I checked out the sides of the pistons, Couple of scrapes on the front and rear of each, but I pressed the back of my thumbnail across each of them and I couldn't feel it... seems okay.


Jugs look good


So last step for the day is getting the cylinder head off the cylinders. Off come the rubber pucks...


And the buck stops there for today. As for getting the bolts out, they're 10mm bolts down a 9mm  shaft. None of my tools fit down there! I was thinking, If I'm getting the bore tested at a shop anyway perhaps I should ask them to take it off... but then I thought they'll charge through the nose for that, and I want to clean and play around with the cylinder head. If I had them take it off with there tools, I'd have to pay to get them to put it back on again. So, I'm turning to you guys again.


Anyone know where I can get a tool thin enough to get these bolts out? Cheers 

[754]

That pic of you putting an open end wrench n a headbolt.. You need a 6 point socket....all should be good 6 points.
 Several bolts on these need a turned down 10mm socket. Like maybe the bolts under the pucks.
 That motor has been open before, one cam tower has been changed.

[Anglo]

754 Yeah I noticed the casting was different on the two cam towers but I didn't know if that was to separate one from the other... now I know I guess. Having read around online the best way of getting the bolts out seems to be find the thinnest socket piece you can and hope for the best, so thats my plan for today.

[754]

Check the four bolts under the pucks, to see if they have screwdriver holes in the top.
 If they do you may he able to get them out with an impact driver, with an extension added. Make sure if you go that route that bit fits bolt properly.

[Anglo]

The 4 bolts under the rubber pucks are the only thing still holding the head onto the cylinders. I checked, each one is a hex head


I went through a few hardware stores for a thinner piece, but the one I bought is still too wide  Is it worth sanding down the sides of the piece? is there another trick to getting the bolts out?

Bonus picture,  there are 6 pucks and 4 bolts. Under another one of the pucks? A mummified wasp! Lord knows how long its been in there, its kind of funny to think its been sat there mummifying every time the engines been running. A wasp in an engine... thats a first for me!

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, it's interesting what you find mate, I bought a crashed 750 in 2009 and found the tach needle in the fins behind the cam chain adjuster, and large pieces of dried skin in various orifices. (The PO was only wearing jeans and he ground off both his kneecaps)

The bolt heads are 10mm, you might need to buy a cheap 1/4" socket set with thin walled sockets to get them out. They look a bit rusty, so use WD40 or whatever to help their removal.

[754]

 try 1/4 drive set , may be slimmer.

[Anglo]

So
A half hour round trip to the hardware store later I've got myself a 1/4'' 10mm piece. I took my socket piece to size it up, and it was maybe a millimetre or 2 thinner.


But it still didn't fit 


This is turning out to be quite the task. I'm looking around on different build forums and stuff to find advice, but theres not much reading material on it. A lot of people struggling to get the head and the cylinders apart, not so many struggling to get the bolts out.