Topic: HELP! I'm baffled with cylinders 2-3 no running.

[Jore]

Hear me out on this one, I've spent the better part of yesterday reading the forums about problems similar to mine. So far I think a have something different on my hands. Some background, I did a 466 big bore on a 400. About a week or to ago I fired it up for the first time, only 1-4 where working, I didn't continue to troubleshoot back then because I had a severe oil leak from the automotive filter I adapted to it and also a minor one from the crank seal on the advancer side, also some clutch issues.

Yesterday, I got the clutch back together, put oil back in it, tried to start it and again only 1-4 fired, the thing is if I hook up the dwell meter I get a reading on both sides, 1-4 are around 32° and the offending side around 25°. If I measure voltage when the points are open I get around 12.5 on both sides with a freshly charged battery.

I have gas on all 4 carbs, but the 2 centre ones drip a bit on first startup, tried some gentle taps around the bowls because I suspected stuck float valves at first, nothing happened.

Today I tried starting it again, same issue. I swapped the condensers from one set to the other, gave it a go, still same issue. I took the plugs out, the centre one's where pretty much clean, the outers had black tips, swapped those as well and tried it again, same issue. I decided to disconnect 2-3 plugs and check for spark, tried to start it this time and it wouldn't fire, connected the plugs again and she fired right up, I wired 1 relay for each coil when redoing the wiring, I swapped the relays with one another, gave it a go with all 4 plugs connected and it fired up, I disconnected just the offending coil this time from the relay and when I tried to restart it I got nothing.

I fiddled with the points gap on 2-3, tried gaps of .012 all the way up to .018 and now the thing just won't start. Checking with a test light the points do get power and the light turns on on mark T.

I really have no idea on what to do next. Also these are the same points that where on the bike when I got 4 years ago, so who knows how old they are. I did order a new set of points and condensers but those are still in transit. For the mean time I'm using pinto condensers and the old points.

[Jore]

Turns out my parts guy had a clymer manual lying around and I got a good read out of it earlier today, I think my issue is with timming, because my bike would fire in the t mark not the f, i left the ignition switch open for like 2 hours and drained the battery, so I'll have to continue checking tomorrow once the battery is charged up again.

[Gene]

Could be as easy as a bad condenser.  Having left the ignition on, if the switch was in the "run" position, you may have fried your coils. I hope that's not the case.

[Jore]

You and me both Gene, hopefully not i'll see tomorrow the damage. The condensers are new btw.

[scottly]

also a minor one from the crank seal on the advancer side,
Did oil contaminate the points?

If I measure voltage when the points are open I get around 12.5 on both sides with a freshly charged battery.
What voltage do you read when the points are closed?

 I decided to disconnect 2-3 plugs and check for spark, tried to start it this time and it wouldn't fire, connected the plugs again and she fired right up, I wired 1 relay for each coil when redoing the wiring, I swapped the relays with one another, gave it a go with all 4 plugs connected and it fired up, I disconnected just the offending coil this time from the relay and when I tried to restart it I got nothing.

If it won't run with the 2-3 plugs discontented, or the 2-3 coil disconnected, then they are firing when connected...  

[BomberMann650]

Good static timing is crucial - as you have discovered.

I am interested in how this relay was affecting your coils - and did you use honda oem condensers or those failure prone flowery ones?

[Jore]

I forgot to mention this but I'm running without an exhaust header, so the I thought that only 1-4 are firing because flames come out from those ports. But seeing on how wrong my timing is set I'm guessing that those flames are because of that. I'm running some Italian made condensers for a ford pinto.

The relays are part of my "simplified" wiring, and the hookup the coils directly to the battery. I'm also running an external rectifier and a ford voltage regulator, from what I've been able to measure, at idle the battery reads about 12.3 volts with a little throttle it goes up a bit.

I'll play around tomorrow with the bike and I'll try to set static timing and see what happens. Thanks for the help!

[scottly]

Bolt a header on before any further tuning attempts. One relay should be sufficient to supply both coils. I'm also running a Ford regulator, and there are some modifications to the wiring required.

[Jore]

Will do Scottly, I redid my wiring fully, everything is new, I was originally planning on using HEI modules but I could never get those to fire the coils. 

[Deltarider]

When 2+3 are not firing and you have worked on the breakerpoints recently, I'd first make sure that the spade* connectors at the breakerpoint are not accidentally touching the plate. Especially with the 2+3 points this can happen easily and will result ofcourse in an (intermittent) dead ignition for 2+3.
Then I'd start with setting the gap in the middle (0,35mm) and see if you can set the timing statically.
When you've managed and engine is running, concentrate on setting the timing fully advanced and accept whatever timing at idle it results in. The latter is not crucial, a correct timing at full advance however is!
* Is 'spade connectors' the correct word?

[strynboen]

think spade konnektor is the flat male one
 in denmark ve use.".ring"( cirkel) for the raund konnektor..for bolt konnektion..
bosch have a kode indeks for all konektors  and number code for most standart set ups..nice standart for most app..just Google bosch standarts

[Jore]

So, I kinda adjusted the timing statically, no flames coming out of the exhaust this time, so I installed the header and gave it another go. All 4 tubes get hot, not sure if equally but If I spray them with water it sizzles immediately, but idle seems quite high with my dwell meter rpm in one set is about 800, so I'm guessing it's running somewhere around 1600 rpm, this with idle stop all the way out. But the bike does start in one push of the button, so I'm guessing that's good, but the dwell on set 1-4 is about 10° and on 2-3 about 18°

Also on carb 3 I suppose ( the centre left one) after shut down I get smoke coming out from it. On the bright side, the oil leak I had from the filter adapter has now stopped.

What should I do next?   

[BomberMann650]

Is it idling high with choke on?  Look to see if your throttle cable is letting carbs close all the way.

Seems you have a running motor now, bravo

[Jore]

The choke is off, it doesn't need it to start! It might be the throttle cables, I made those a while back but I might have left one a tad to short since I manually have to return the throttle back to closing position.

Thanks for the help, I couldn't have done it without the help of the forum.

[strynboen]

does the return springs vork perfekt...need to snap back hard

[Jore]

you can feel the force of it pulling it closed but the cables bind somewhere, when it's almost shut y snaps closed

[BomberMann650]

That binding is a big safety concern man.  Address that pronto!

[Deltarider]

but idle seems quite high with my dwell meter rpm in one set is about 800, so I'm guessing it's running somewhere around 1600 rpm, this with idle stop all the way out. But the bike does start in one push of the button, so I'm guessing that's good, but the dwell on set 1-4 is about 10°

That indicates a gap far too wide.

and on 2-3

and on 2-3 what?
I don't know what meter you use but note that readings, both rpm and dwell, depend on the scale you've selected.
A dwell that reads 47,5^o on a 4 cyl scale will show as 23,8^o on a 8 cyl and as 31,7^o on a 6 cyl scale (and as 52,8% duty cycle).

[Jore]

I've just corrected my mistake, but on 2-3 I have about 18° of dwell, as per the meter I'm using an actron unit on the 8 cyl scale. So i'll have to reset the points gap based on your comments, I set them to .014 allegedly.

I'll see what's up with the throttle cables, at least doing a new set is fairly straight forward.

[Deltarider]

I've just corrected my mistake, but on 2-3 I have about 18° of dwell, as per the meter I'm using an actron unit on the 8 cyl scale. So i'll have to reset the points gap based on your comments, I set them to .014 allegedly.

If your meter is correct, .014 should read as 23,8^o.
The widest gap that Honda specifies, 0,4 mm, would read as 23^o on an 8 cyl scale.
The smallest gap, 0,3 mm, would read as 24,5^o on an 8 cyl scale.
Readings should remain constant no matter what rpm.
Imitation parts may make it more difficult to achieve a correct gap and timing.

[strynboen]

the dwell  meter have to be on dual fireing mode..or it vill read the impulses for a 4 cyll engine..(if it are a automobil type)..its not the same as a 4 cyll dual igniting systen as Honda use

[Jore]

I've just corrected my mistake, but on 2-3 I have about 18° of dwell, as per the meter I'm using an actron unit on the 8 cyl scale. So i'll have to reset the points gap based on your comments, I set them to .014 allegedly.

If your meter is correct, .014 should read as 23,8^o.
The widest gap that Honda specifies, 0,4 mm, would read as 23^o on an 8 cyl scale.
The smallest gap, 0,3 mm, would read as 24,5^o on an 8 cyl scale.
Readings should remain constant no matter what rpm.
Imitation parts may make it more difficult to achieve a correct gap and timing.

I think the readings are off because I didn't set the gap correctly, I still have to learn how to do that.

[strynboen]

but still a simpel static adjusting..vill get you so close..it must run almost perfekt...or good to a normal ride..think you need to let it running for some time to get it smoothen aut...mine is still a bit strange..have somthimg still not 100%...a lot of possibel Things to try aut.....but often it are kaburettors and fuel realated..and not in ignision and valvets...
have you done a test of fuel goes the fuel tap...mine gives 0,20 liter in a minute(china aftermarked)

[Jore]

Mine's a Harley unit, I can't remember for which bike it is, I'll have to test the flow on it. What quantity should be acceptable?

[BomberMann650]

I just wanna echo what strynboen said.
I gave up the notion of using meters and seizure inducing lights to tune my bloo.
Whats made my bike run rough 9/10 is having the 1/4 and 2/3 open fire a couple degrees off each other.  Using a test light and getting the light to turn on at the same relative mark has given me a smooth "almost perfect" ignition.

Until the daichi condenser dies at least.

I try not to get hung up on the points gap itself.  Considering that the breakers ride on an egg-shaped cam - the gap will be too big or too small at any given point in the rotation (no pun intended) - worse thing to happen, breaker does open at all, or doesn't close at all.

[Jore]

Well I had a pretty good scare yesterday, the bike was pushed of the stand and fell to the left side, luckily it was next to a huge flower pot that broke it's fall, so the only casualty was a broken pot and a lot of dirt on the handlebar.

After putting the bike back up again, cleaning everything and double checking there was no damage, I left it for the day, today I tried starting it and the carbs stopped leaking, so I guess the float valves where set free with the fall.

But now it seems that outer piston on the alternator side isn't firing :/ and also it seems that the crank seal from the alternator side is leaking, I got kinda bummed out so I left it for the day and check on it tomorrow.