Topic: Hondabond 4 vs Permatex ultra grey

[drumstyx]

This has probably been covered before, but since I'm in Canada, things seem to be a bit different.

Last time I went to a dealership for a manufacturer-specific bond product (I asked for both kawabond and yamabond if I remember correctly) they said they *might* be able to order it in, but that Permatex Ultra Grey was just as good. At the time I was just working on some top end stuff and the clutch, which already had gaskets, and the sealant was just for insurance, so I just went with it, no big deal.

Well now, I'm sealing up the crankcase halves, so it seems a bit more important to get it right. Hondaman's book says to use Hondabond 4 or Aviation permatex, and the Clymer states simply "Permatex". I've heard the Ultra Grey is identical to Hondabond 4...any truth to this?

Honestly, if I can use the Ultra Grey, I can get this engine together *tonight*, whereas if I must get Hondabond, lord knows how long a special order might take...

[slikwilli420]

Order the hondabond on amazon. It's like ten bucks.

[drumstyx]

I'd love to, but the only one on amazon is 3.5oz for $12, and $20 for shipping that takes god knows how long. When it comes to hobby stuff, Canada might as well be a third world country.

[BomberMann650]

I've used both honda bond ht (grey goo) and permatex ultra grey (grey goo too)

Both products worked as advertised.  They looked, felt, smelled, and sealed the same for me.

The prep work, application, and cure time are what makes a real difference in the success/failure of the grey goo.

[540nova]

I've used both honda bond ht (grey goo) and permatex ultra grey (grey goo too)

Both products worked as advertised.  They looked, felt, smelled, and sealed the same for me.

The prep work, application, and cure time are what makes a real difference in the success/failure of the grey goo.

Exactly


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[PeWe]

I had to check Permatex site again since I have bought Permatex Ultra Grey as a silicone based sealer I had in my mind to seal big bore cylinder/sleeves with.

NOT same as Hondabond 4 that is not silicone based. Hondabond H-T is silicone.
Silicone is a hardening stuff, not good for crank cases.
Use Hondabond 4
Or ThreeBond 1194 that is said to be same as Hondabond 4
or Permatex Aviation no 3. I used it in my last assembly. Easy to apply thin layer. I'm sure it will seal well.

Do not use Hylomar blue. The cases will leak oil. I used it 30 years ago since I did not have more of the really good stuff, Hermetite Golden at the moment. A friend warned me about Hylomar, "it will leak". He was right. Hylomar Blue can be used under the rubber pucks under cam holders and additional sealer on paper gaskets if surfaces are scratched

[MessnerMoto]

loctite 518

[flybox1]

Threebond 1184 is very similar to Hondabond/Yamabond, and most likely available at your autoparts store.

[drumstyx]

After some more research I found that Hondabond 4 has 2 iterations, one a silicon sealant for gasketless surfaces, and the newer stuff is called semi-drying.

I ended up picking up Permatex MotoSeal. Recommended for case halves and from what I've heard formulated specifically to target the 'yama/kawa/hondabond 4' market. I went to get the ultra grey, but it didn't say that it remained flexible, which is what I want to see in a sealant

[madmtnmotors]

I'm kind of partial to Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker:

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/anaerobic-gasket-makers-flange-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-gasket-maker/

Used it on my 2 cycle boat motor case halves when I rebuilt it after the #2 piston went on strike. Have used it for various applications, but I have yet to split the cases of a CB750 though.

[70CB750]

Working on my daughters Volvo, they strongly recommended this:



https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/silicone-gasket-maker-chemical-sealant-1161059oe

Pink stuff, I used it and also glued two pieces of aluminum together as kind of a test.

Took quite the effort to get those aluminum pieces apart - always wondered if it would work on CB750 halves.

[madmtnmotors]

Working on my daughters Volvo, they strongly recommended this:



https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/silicone-gasket-maker-chemical-sealant-1161059oe

Pink stuff, I used it and also glued two pieces of aluminum together as kind of a test.

Took quite the effort to get those aluminum pieces apart - always wondered if it would work on CB750 halves.

The only issue with silicone based sealers that I am aware of is that the silicone "ooze" on the inside of the engine has a tendency to break down into little silicone marbles over time that often find their way to the little oil jets at the head often resulting in roasted cam, cam bearings (towers), and rockers.


Not that there's anything wrong with that...     

[flybox1]

Some of you might recall after my F3 engine build, my 5th gear went missing.
I had to split the cases twice more to resolve.
My initial build use of Threebond 1184 was, what I thought as adequate.  Thin smear with a toothpick.  No excess.
Upon splitting the cases the first time, I came upon all those 'beads' on the inner seam.  Nothing had hardened or ended up in my screen.  They were all pliable and peeled nicely off the edges.  It really surprised me how much oozed out with the case torque with how little I used. 
Subsequent applications were significantly less. 
Properly cleaned sealing edges and minimal application are a must.

[MRieck]

I'm kind of partial to Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker:

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/anaerobic-gasket-makers-flange-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-gasket-maker/

Used it on my 2 cycle boat motor case halves when I rebuilt it after the #2 piston went on strike. Have used it for various applications, but I have yet to split the cases of a CB750 though.

That is a good product Wilbur. Just to put it out there....modern bike engines use a hardening silicone for the case halves (black in color). I am sure it is applied by robot. My hayabusa seems pretty happy with it.

[madmtnmotors]

I'm kind of partial to Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker:

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/anaerobic-gasket-makers-flange-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-gasket-maker/

Used it on my 2 cycle boat motor case halves when I rebuilt it after the #2 piston went on strike. Have used it for various applications, but I have yet to split the cases of a CB750 though.

That is a good product Wilbur. Just to put it out there....modern bike engines use a hardening silicone for the case halves (black in color). I am sure it is applied by robot. My hayabusa seems pretty happy with it.

But does the Hayabusa have any oil passages as small as those in the CB750 head making them susceptible to the same type of blockage and failure? I have no hands on (or any practical knowledge what so ever) of a Hayabusa engine. I have never had any reservations about using modest applications of RTV silicone on an automotive engine due to the absence of these types of micro passages and the (mostly) lack of risk for this potential failure when properly applied. It is the extremely small openings in the CB750 top end oil jets that is the sole limiting factor that prevents me from using any kind of silicone sealant on a CB750. I cringe every time I open one up that was "glued" back together with RTV silicone. I even have one with the aforementioned roasted cam...

Break out the marshmallows! 


I'm sure there are plenty of examples of CB750 SOHC engines with RTV silicone holding the oil in with many, many, miles ridden. Heck, RC even glued the double and triple cases shut with "gobs" of RTV silicone. For me, there are too many alternatives out there for me to risk a little bit of silicone destroying all my hard work (and money!). Of course, many sealants could pose the same potential risk if too much sealant is applied. So just like all good things, moderation is key! 

[PeWe]

I'm kind of partial to Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker:

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/anaerobic-gasket-makers-flange-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-gasket-maker/

Used it on my 2 cycle boat motor case halves when I rebuilt it after the #2 piston went on strike. Have used it for various applications, but I have yet to split the cases of a CB750 though.

That is a good product Wilbur. Just to put it out there....modern bike engines use a hardening silicone for the case halves (black in color). I am sure it is applied by robot. My hayabusa seems pretty happy with it.

Good to know for future builds. I was convinced that silicone is too thick, difficult to apply very thin layer to avoid silicone to be squeezed inside the engine.

Industrial robots applies sealers very quick and accurate. All will be same when programmed correctly. Dispensing system controlled by analogue I/O's syncronized with robot speed. Amount of sealer (flow) will reduce exactly when the robot gun tip slows down or accelerate. The setup of proper settings of the pre closing, reduce/ increase parameterized at the installation to match the dispense delays of the actual used sealer. Also possible to use other bead size where needed along the path.

[05c50]

This thread is starting to look like an oil thread. I won't try to convince anyone as to which one to use, but I'll add a little advise to help get a good seal. Years ago I was working with FoMoCo engineering on an engine definition program (they would try something new and we tell them what worked and what didn't). This was about the time that silicone based RTV was starting to replace paper and cork gaskets. We experienced a high rate of valve cover gasket failure and it was traced back to the method being used to clean the parts when being re installed. As you probably know, "brake clean" in spray cans is the mechanics number one cleaning solvent and used for everything from cleaning engine parts to killing spiders. It turned out that the brake clean residue was preventing the RTV from properly curing and causing many repeat repairs. So what does all this mean? Just like painting, engine assembly requires the right kind of prep and this is a good example. We found that cleaning the surfaces to be sealed with a good detergent and water would remove the residue and insure a good cure. Hope this helps.

.......Paul

[madmtnmotors]

Years ago I was working with FoMoCo engineering on an engine definition program (they would try something new and we tell them what worked and what didn't). This was about the time that silicone based RTV was starting to replace paper and cork gaskets. We experienced a high rate of valve cover gasket failure and it was traced back to the method being used to clean the parts when being re installed. As you probably know, "brake clean" in spray cans is the mechanics number one cleaning solvent and used for everything from cleaning engine parts to killing spiders. It turned out that the brake clean residue was preventing the RTV from properly curing and causing many repeat repairs. So what does all this mean? Just like painting, engine assembly requires the right kind of prep and this is a good example. We found that cleaning the surfaces to be sealed with a good detergent and water would remove the residue and insure a good cure. Hope this helps.

.......Paul

Very good information indeed. 

[70CB750]

Thank you, good to know.

I have a gallon of xyłol (xylen) and use it for surface cleaning. Seems like the sealant cures properly on those gaskets.

This thread is starting to look like an oil thread. I won't try to convince anyone as to which one to use, but I'll add a little advise to help get a good seal. Years ago I was working with FoMoCo engineering on an engine definition program (they would try something new and we tell them what worked and what didn't). This was about the time that silicone based RTV was starting to replace paper and cork gaskets. We experienced a high rate of valve cover gasket failure and it was traced back to the method being used to clean the parts when being re installed. As you probably know, "brake clean" in spray cans is the mechanics number one cleaning solvent and used for everything from cleaning engine parts to killing spiders. It turned out that the brake clean residue was preventing the RTV from properly curing and causing many repeat repairs. So what does all this mean? Just like painting, engine assembly requires the right kind of prep and this is a good example. We found that cleaning the surfaces to be sealed with a good detergent and water would remove the residue and insure a good cure. Hope this helps.

.......Paul

[drumstyx]

This thread is starting to look like an oil thread. I won't try to convince anyone as to which one to use, but I'll add a little advise to help get a good seal. Years ago I was working with FoMoCo engineering on an engine definition program (they would try something new and we tell them what worked and what didn't). This was about the time that silicone based RTV was starting to replace paper and cork gaskets. We experienced a high rate of valve cover gasket failure and it was traced back to the method being used to clean the parts when being re installed. As you probably know, "brake clean" in spray cans is the mechanics number one cleaning solvent and used for everything from cleaning engine parts to killing spiders. It turned out that the brake clean residue was preventing the RTV from properly curing and causing many repeat repairs. So what does all this mean? Just like painting, engine assembly requires the right kind of prep and this is a good example. We found that cleaning the surfaces to be sealed with a good detergent and water would remove the residue and insure a good cure. Hope this helps.

.......Paul

DAMN! I'm glad I read this. I have xylene and other 'pure' solvents I can use, but you called it -- I was about to use a can of carb cleaner (got it on sale cheaper than brake cleaner) to clean the surfaces. Xylene and a rag it is then!

[MoMo]

I have quite a few cans of MEK, would that be effective?...Larry

[drumstyx]

I have quite a few cans of MEK, would that be effective?...Larry

I have some methylene chloride (crazy expensive in Canada) but I've read it's not so great on aluminum. MEK is similarly strong, so my instinct is maybe not, but it could be fine.

[RAFster122s]

You know I bought a car in California several years ago now and they required a clear decal on the window warning you that cars contained substance found by California to contribute to or cause cancer and it was notifying anyone who operated or rode in one of those risks...

Good thing our Motorcycles don't have those nasty things associated with them....

You can't even buy a good can of carb dip or proper spray paints or a host of other useful chemicals like MEK and others there without a license and release of liability.

I am surprised they still allow Harley in the state given their propensity to mark territory where they park or stopped with a known carcinogenic liquid.

[PeWe]

I have quite a few cans of MEK, would that be effective?...Larry

I have some methylene chloride (crazy expensive in Canada) but I've read it's not so great on aluminum. MEK is similarly strong, so my instinct is maybe not, but it could be fine.

That's really good stuff! It will strip paint, 2k very quick. We had a very good stripper gel with methylene chloride as active ingredient. The 2K paint bubbled up within minutes. Let act for 30 minutes and rinse with water.

The really good case sealer Hermetite Golden smelled methylene chloride and probably banned due to that. All chemicals with negative effect on the ozon layer is banned.

35 years ago I could get methylene chloride from my job. 1-2 liter no problem. It melted palstic parts together.
A large container with 50-100L methylene chloride with an upper layer of water perfect for stripping the 2k clear coat on electrical motors to remove the copper inside and repair them with new cu coils.... Just dip the motor for not that long time.

I like oil threads since people can mention their good and bad experience of oils that change the mix constantly.

[NobleHops]

Years ago I was working with FoMoCo engineering on an engine definition program (they would try something new and we tell them what worked and what didn't). This was about the time that silicone based RTV was starting to replace paper and cork gaskets. We experienced a high rate of valve cover gasket failure and it was traced back to the method being used to clean the parts when being re installed. As you probably know, "brake clean" in spray cans is the mechanics number one cleaning solvent and used for everything from cleaning engine parts to killing spiders. It turned out that the brake clean residue was preventing the RTV from properly curing and causing many repeat repairs. So what does all this mean? Just like painting, engine assembly requires the right kind of prep and this is a good example. We found that cleaning the surfaces to be sealed with a good detergent and water would remove the residue and insure a good cure. Hope this helps.

.......Paul

Very good information indeed. 

+1, thank you, that's a gem.

[drumstyx]

You know I bought a car in California several years ago now and they required a clear decal on the window warning you that cars contained substance found by California to contribute to or cause cancer and it was notifying anyone who operated or rode in one of those risks...

Good thing our Motorcycles don't have those nasty things associated with them....

You can't even buy a good can of carb dip or proper spray paints or a host of other useful chemicals like MEK and others there without a license and release of liability.

I am surprised they still allow Harley in the state given their propensity to mark territory where they park or stopped with a known carcinogenic liquid.

It's similar in Canada. One gallon of methylene chloride cost me $80CAD. I bought it to mix with xylene as an approximation of the berryman carb dip we can't get here.

[flybox1]

Acetone leaves less of an oily residue than Xylene.  This might make it a better substance for cleaning mating surfaces.
I have cans both, as I use xylene to clean my expensive brushes of two-part epoxy used in fly rod building.
Xylene does not clean up in water.  Spill drops on the driveway and let it evap.  A water rinse will still bead up there on the residue.
This does not happen with Acetone.

[DaveBarbier]

loctite 518

+1 I like working with this stuff. Easy to apply and won't cure until it's between the flanges so you have infinite time to assemble. Remains a somewhat tacky goo, like snot (not that I play with that that often), so any stuff that oozes out inside the motor can't block any passages. Good stuff.