Topic: a bit of plumbing help?

[vames]

Working in the white collar world doesn't give me much access to folks who actually do things for a living, so things like plumbing advice are hard to come by. People on this board have always been very helpful, and so I'd like to see if someone can help "check my work" in the sketch below.

I'm installing a water softener. It's pretty straight forward except for draining the discharge side.

It's all in the basement in the very front of the house, and I have a big (maybe 4") cleanout that sticks up out of the floor (see photo). I understand that I can drain into the cleanout provided that I:

• 1) preserve the cleanout functionality,
  2) use a P-Trap to keep gases from coming out
  3) maintain an air gap between the discharge hose and whatever it's draining into

With those in mind, can anybody look at my diagram and tell me if it looks like it would work? Do I need any sort of vent with a setup like this?

Thanks in advance.

[bill440cars]

You have the correct principles in your diagram. You're on County provided sewer? Best check with them (or don't) regarding permits to tap into and discharge into County sewage from a softener. Some municipalities are VERY cranky about it without a licensed plumber or permit. Lord help you if you do it, and they get a bug in their joint...

Biggest trick you face is making the connection from PVC (assuming you'll use that for the discharge) to ductile iron (exisiting sewer line). You can find a specific plumbing supply store Y connections (2" cleanup for your discharge) and 4" for your sanitary that might aide in making the joint.

You can eliminate the "P" trap at the bottom, if you plumb into the sanitary with a solid connection, by moving the air up the line, and above the tank outlet. Think horizontal outlet, uphill and over, then straight downhill into sanitary connection. Usually the discharge is under pressure and the uphill is not a problem. It also traps the air/gases completely within the solid connection.

       Nice, some Very good to know info on this. Cal, you seem to be a "Jack of all trades", my friend. 

[vames]

Cal -- thanks for the help! If I understand the second part of your comment, you are advocating a harder connection from the discharge tube into the sanitary T (no air gap, no p-trap). 

That would be a lot easier. I'll have to check my local code, but everything I've read demands an air gap to ensure no chance that plumbing backup makes its way back into the softener. And if an air gap is there, I'd need that P-trap for the gases.

[vames]

Also, Cal, I totally agree. I do DIY because nobody wants a job like this unless they can charge me a 50% markup on the equipment and $500 in labor to glue a few pieces of plastic or solder a few pieces of pipe together. I don't mind overpaying for something I can't do, but I hate overpaying for something I can do.

[BomberMann650]

I'll take "#$%* they don't teach in school but really should for $300".

+1 code/permit - permits are sometimes bull#$%* money grabs but code is occassionally made by people who have some skill.

[bill440cars]

Just a Jack-of-A, Bill. I too have had to resort to DIY because it seems any more that you can't hire anyone, to do anything. All the "contractors" who I encounter #$%* about not having money, but shy away from work when I offer it to them. Screw them, I'll do it myself the right way, the first time.

Also, Cal, I totally agree. I do DIY because nobody wants a job like this unless they can charge me a 50% markup on the equipment and $500 in labor to glue a few pieces of plastic or solder a few pieces of pipe together. I don't mind overpaying for something I can't do, but I hate overpaying for something I can do.

        Totally understand you all, as I have done everything I could, all through the years and my Dad did as well. I saw my Dad do everything he could & only hiring it done, when it was beyond his expertise and as a last resort. I still do just as you all do, to this very day. There are still some good folks out there, who work on particular things and try to treat the customer right, but also a lot of those who are only concerned about getting the money and lots of it. We have an advantage, since the computer age has developed so much. For some time now, we have had the advantage of "You Tube" that has a lot of good videos on there, on "How To Do", but still have to sort through those, in hopes of the most informative ones.

       Besides the tons of motorcycle experience and info provided on here, there is a ton of All Kinds Of Experience & Info about Numerous things that folks here are willing to offer, to help our Family Members out and all we have to do, is just ask,   

[vames]

You misunderstand: you do need the air trap. My point was where it occurs can be different than you drew. If the discharge outlet of your softener is near the top of the tank (most backwash/discharge outlets are) then create P above that point and allow straight drainage afterwards downhill into the sanitary pipe.

Because you existing cleanout is below the concrete, this avoids you possibly busting up concrete and having a leak because you can use a hard connection, not soft, at the existing pipe.

Does that make more sense?

Thanks for your help and sorry for being so dense. In my mind, getting a hard connection into the current cleanout will be easy, since I can get a PVC adapter that screws in where the current plug is, then starts gluing from there on up. All happens above the level of the concrete.

Is this picture more like what you are saying? I'm not sure I see a big difference. Again, sorry for being so dense on this. Like most, I know a lot about supply plumbing but don't know drain plumbing.

[vames]

 Got it. Thanks for your help.

[754]

click on the song FLAKES by Zappa.. on youtube...listen to the lyrics...

[faux fiddy]

click on the song FLAKES by Zappa.. on youtube...listen to the lyrics...

One would think it  unlikely that a tampoon  would ever enter this system, but then there are the morons

[vames]

click on the song FLAKES by Zappa.. on youtube...listen to the lyrics...

Yes. Zappa perfectly describes my experience with a number of so-called contractors.

Now if we can just put all of HGTV in jail for propagating the myths that 1) contractors actually show up ad do work on time without hounding them and 2) you can renovate a whole house for $10K in just 6 days.

[madmtnmotors]

I think you nailed it in the first sketch. It looks like the P-trap is between the new connection at the cleanout and the wall, with the vertical pipe running up the wall to the air gap. Looks good to me.

[vames]

I think you nailed it in the first sketch. It looks like the P-trap is between the new connection at the cleanout and the wall, with the vertical pipe running up the wall to the air gap. Looks good to me.

Thanks. Putting it together this weekend.

[Duke McDukiedook]

A question on the designed solution- does the air gap at the release relieve the need for venting for code?

[madmtnmotors]

A question on the designed solution- does the air gap at the release relieve the need for venting for code?

I think it is more for preventing anything from being siphoned back into your drinking water.

[vames]

A question on the designed solution- does the air gap at the release relieve the need for venting for code?

I think it is more for preventing anything from being siphoned back into your drinking water.

That's my understanding too. It keeps a potential sewage backup from contaminating the softener.

[754]

We had a female guest over New Years, plugged the toilet up bad, didnt say anything, but I spotted water on the floor.. I suspected tampoon..Then I dumped and made it worse.. Should have tried flushing first...
 Then it was a foul mess... So that made me decide not to stir the pot with the plunger..
So it took about 20 tries with the lid off, and about 6 hours.. To get it flowing.

But I saved half a weeks pay....

[vames]

A question on the designed solution- does the air gap at the release relieve the need for venting for code?

There does not need to be an air gap between the discharge pipe and the sanitary inlet if the outlet of the discharge tank is protected by a one-way check valve. Venting of plumbing drainage is mostly for assisting the drainage of water. Sanitary systems are not vented except to the atmosphere, again for aide in drainage.

The way the first sketch is drawn, you'd actually be venting sewer gas into your basement (not recommended). That's why I suggested a hard connection of the softener tank to the sanitary pipe. Any air trap in the system should be within a P style trap.

I'm sure all water softeners do have a check valve that won't let contaminated water flow in, but codes still call for the air gap -- I guess to be double sure.

But now you have me concerned about my plan in the first drawing. At what point in that setup would sewer gas escape?

BTW -- my original plan is based off the basic plan for a washing machine standpipe.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I think the height difference would create more static head when the p-trap is moved up higher in cal's drawing. You would want you p-trap as high as you could put it.
In my last post I was asking about having to be within 10 feet of a venting stack if that was required like most plumbing connections for sinks or toilets or if a softener release is not considered an appliance that has that requirement. If I understand right Cal said that distance was not required for this connection. If your softener does not have a check valve it would not be too tough to install one when you do all this plumbing.

Do you currently have a check valve for your house to your street elbow connection? While you are doing all this plumbing this might be something to consider. It would mean busting up some concrete but would give you some peace of mind if sewer backups are common in your neighborhood.

[vames]

My house was designed and built around 1920, so I doubt I have any modern design of the system. But all of my drains work well and we don't get sewer backups, at least in the five years I've been there. The vent stack is about 10 feet away near the washing machine.

To test the viability of the cleanout, I sprayed a hose into it full strength for about 20 minutes. The water just drained and drained and drained -- no sign of hesitation. The way I'm envisioning, I think the P-trap will keep the sewer gases contained like it should. I'm pretty sure it will all work out. At any rate, I'm not finishing the basement until spring, so I'll have a few months to make sure it doesn't get wet or gassy down there.

[Duke McDukiedook]

My county installed backflow valves on the street elbow on houses in my old neighborhood due to backflow problems and would send out a yearly maintenance bulletin to all the people who had them. I never had any problems with a sewer backup at that house but had neighbors that did have sewer backups when we would get heavy spring rains.

[Don R]

Many of the brass plugs are 3 1/2" this is done to keep people from hooking onto it. An air gap is mandatory in any event. It may work without a proper vent per code but if you sell the house it may be caught during an inspection.
 

[vames]

Many of the brass plugs are 3 1/2" this is done to keep people from hooking onto it. An air gap is mandatory in any event. It may work without a proper vent per code but if you sell the house it may be caught during an inspection.
 

I just checked and holy crap it is indeed 3 1/2" (looks to be NPT) but can't be sure. At any rate, I don't think there is any such thing as 3 1/2" PVC to thread into that hole. If there is a solution that exists, Grainger will have it. I'll call them tomorrow.

[madmtnmotors]

Would it be easier to tee off the washing machine drain?

[vames]

Would it be easier to tee off the washing machine drain?

Yes and no. While it would be super simple to just go into the slop sink that the washer drains into, I'd have to run the discharge tube through a couple of walls to do it. This cleanout is literally zero feet away from where the softener is going to go. 

I've discovered cast-iron bushings that bring 3 1/2" down to 3", so I think it will work out.