Author Topic: Front end "Shudder"  (Read 6066 times)

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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2006, 06:43:36 AM »
HondaMan-

Funny you should mention swingarm length. I was at the local motorcycle parts emporium yesterday ordering a 17-tooth front sprocket (per your "soop-up" suggestions post  ;D) and while they don't list the lengths of the swingarms themselves, it was interesting to note that the K model used an 18/48 ratio with a 100 link 530 chain, while the F models were listed as having a 17/48 ratio and a 104 link 530 chain. Wouldn't a slightly smaller front sprocket and longer (albeit only 4 links) chain be indicative of a longer swingarm?
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2006, 06:57:41 AM »
...I'm pretty sure the later models (77-78) did have longer swing arms.  Not by much, maybe 1-1.25".  I'm extended a few, and haved sized them up before.  I'll get you guys some pics and tire sizes and report back...
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2006, 07:30:24 AM »
...heres pics of the front and rear.  Front is a 90/90 H 19 and the rear is a 120/90-19
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kettlesd

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2006, 09:32:28 AM »
You don't have any scalloping on those tires by any chance?

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2006, 09:47:08 AM »
My thoughts are, that if all else fails, to replace the 30 year old steering head bearings and races with the newer styled kit if it hasn't already been done.  Of course I would always defer to the true experts Hondaman and TT.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2006, 11:20:01 AM »
You don't have any scalloping on those tires by any chance?

Scalloping?   ???
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2006, 12:08:32 PM »
Also referred to as "cupping". Look for worn spots uniformly patterned around the perimeter of the tire along the sides of the tread patch. Kinda hard to describe without a picture...
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2006, 12:11:17 PM »
Unless it's just the lighting, the left side of the rear tire just below the fender doesn't look very good. Seems to be lacking a bit of rubber. Hard to say from the picture though, is it evenly worn?
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2006, 12:46:48 PM »
From the pix, I'd say it is time for new tires.  There's a good chance with new tires, properly inflated, the wobble will be gone.
Greg
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2006, 04:26:35 PM »
HondaMan-

Funny you should mention swingarm length. I was at the local motorcycle parts emporium yesterday ordering a 17-tooth front sprocket (per your "soop-up" suggestions post  ;D) and while they don't list the lengths of the swingarms themselves, it was interesting to note that the K model used an 18/48 ratio with a 100 link 530 chain, while the F models were listed as having a 17/48 ratio and a 104 link 530 chain. Wouldn't a slightly smaller front sprocket and longer (albeit only 4 links) chain be indicative of a longer swingarm?

That sure sounds like it, Jonesy. Maybe I should be measuring these swingarms when they come to me and make my own chart (  :-[ ).
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2006, 04:40:51 PM »
You don't have any scalloping on those tires by any chance?

Scalloping?   ???

That rear one looks like it is from the picture. The front one looks a little squarish, which can come from overinflation for a long time (like +3-4 PSI over nornal), but hard to tell from the pix angle.

Either one can cause this problem: most of the time I've seen it, it came from a squared-off rear tire (from long touring, straight-up riding), or bad bearings, either at the steering head or the swingarm pivot.

To test the steering head bearings: sit on the bike, both tires on the ground, pull the bars fully to one stop and hold the brake tight. Then, using your butt, shift the bike forward and back while "feeling" for a little "thump" in the front forks or handlebars that might indicate some looseness. There will be a very small amount of losseness coming from the front forks (unless they have 100,000 miles like mine, then it's a LOT), because the insides of the fork tubes wear. But, you are looking for it right by the big nuts on the upper steering crown. You might be able to touch the crown during the shifting back & forth to feel it there.

To test the swingarm bushings, have someone hold the bike vertical for you while it is on both tires, then grab the rear wheel all the way at the back at try to pull it toward and away from you, in the same direction as the axles (left and right, if you will). There might be a visible tightening and loosening of the chain with this act, if there is lots of play.

Sometimes, if the bearings and bushings are both bad, new tires won't help. It also can come from an unevenly-worn chain or worn sprockets: test for this on the centerstand. Make a pointer out of wire (coat hangers work good) and point to the bottom edge of the chain as it sits still. Then slowly rotate the rear wheel and watch the chain to see how far up & down it moves from this point. More than 1/4" will cause some input to the bike's handling, especially while decelerating, and especially when decelerating down a steep hill.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2006, 04:54:30 PM »
Get some new, QUALITY tires and have them electronically balanced. Those tire are crap. Plus who knows what the bushings and bearings are like(absolute junk I'd guess). If you buy an old bike be prepared to replace all this parts....these bikes are old! I've told guys just because it is new to you doesn't erase 25 years of existence. Some bikes are prone to shake. Most of them were equipped with 16" fronts  i.e. FJ1100/1200's. This occurred after very few miles too.
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kettlesd

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2006, 05:00:49 PM »
Get some new, QUALITY tires and have them electronically balanced. Those tire are crap. Plus who knows what the bushings and bearings are like(absolute junk I'd guess). If you buy an old bike be prepared to replace all this parts....these bikes are old! I've told guys just because it is new to you doesn't erase 25 years of existence. Some bikes are prone to shake. Most of them were equipped with 16" fronts  i.e. FJ1100/1200's. This occurred after very few miles too.

The FJ"S were prone to shake?? Wasn't aware - mine's an incredibly stable platform. I smoked a coyote at a quartering angle at 120 kph (about 75 mph) and it never hiccuped.

I LOVE that million dollar bike by the way!

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2006, 05:01:58 PM »
...my vote is its the tires.  I'll be remedying that probably in the spring.  Also, I know the sprokets and chain are crap, so I'm replacing those to.  Thanx all for the info...   8)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2006, 05:10:02 PM »
Get some new, QUALITY tires and have them electronically balanced. Those tire are crap. Plus who knows what the bushings and bearings are like(absolute junk I'd guess). If you buy an old bike be prepared to replace all this parts....these bikes are old! I've told guys just because it is new to you doesn't erase 25 years of existence. Some bikes are prone to shake. Most of them were equipped with 16" fronts  i.e. FJ1100/1200's. This occurred after very few miles too.

The FJ"S were prone to shake?? Wasn't aware - mine's an incredibly stable platform. I smoked a coyote at a quartering angle at 120 kph (about 75 mph) and it never hiccuped.

I LOVE that million dollar bike by the way!
Thanks! I've owned an 87 FJ1200 since new. It's pretty stable though decelerate with no throttle from about 40mph with your hands of the bars and it will spit you on your head. It is worse with some types of tire than others. It also depends on the wheelbase which depends on chain wear.
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2006, 06:04:11 PM »

Thanks! I've owned an 87 FJ1200 since new. It's pretty stable though decelerate with no throttle from about 40mph with your hands of the bars and it will spit you on your head. It is worse with some types of tire than others. It also depends on the wheelbase which depends on chain wear.

My CBR1000F does it, and ST1100s are famous for it, too.
Greg
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2006, 06:01:46 AM »
This is about BMW bikes buit it is a good explanation of tire cupping:

http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/cupping/index.htm
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Offline geomatts

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2006, 10:13:44 AM »
I was experiencing that "wobble" on my '77 750F.  A friend told me about the "cupping" phenomenon, and I realized that my tires were indeed "cupped".  Put new, balanced tires on and the problem was solved.
77' CB750F2 since '04

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2006, 10:39:25 AM »
...thats good enough for me geo...what tire brand/sizes did u go with?
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Front end "Shudder"
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2006, 12:50:58 PM »
I was experiencing that "wobble" on my '77 750F.  A friend told me about the "cupping" phenomenon, and I realized that my tires were indeed "cupped".  Put new, balanced tires on and the problem was solved.

It might correct things for a while, but you might want to keep investigating what caused the cupping, unless it was an out of balance condition to start with. Just keep an eye on future wear patterns in case it is something else.
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