Topic: Static timing question... can't get marks to line up-- 74 cb550k

[Deltarider]

Don't worry. Work step by step and you will get there. And you'll learn a lot in the process. You also may want to read this: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163916.msg1891634.html#msg1891634

[work9to5]

Usually the problem lies in the points gap. Especially when people unfamiliar with points try working them. If the advancer is clean an relatively oiled it does its job. Only thing that can go wrong with it is spring tension. Which Honestly doesn't usually, unless it's a high mileage bike. The points can be set in a range. You said you set them at the widest. Try coming down a bit. Setting points correctly when first doing them can be really confusing, then add on timing and it can get worse. Look for informational vids on how points work do you can understand the "big picture" of what's happening down there. It helped me a lot. If you can't figure it out lmk I'll post a video for ya. I own 3 of these bikes. Goodluck man

[kippstakes]

Usually the problem lies in the points gap. Especially when people unfamiliar with points try working them. If the advancer is clean an relatively oiled it does its job. Only thing that can go wrong with it is spring tension. Which Honestly doesn't usually, unless it's a high mileage bike. The points can be set in a range. You said you set them at the widest. Try coming down a bit. Setting points correctly when first doing them can be really confusing, then add on timing and it can get worse. Look for informational vids on how points work do you can understand the "big picture" of what's happening down there. It helped me a lot. If you can't figure it out lmk I'll post a video for ya. I own 3 of these bikes. Goodluck man

I'll throw it all back together tomorrow and recheck the gaps. Thanks!

[kippstakes]

Update--
Put her back together and re-set the points (to .014 again). No improvement, same story. However, it dawned on me that the closer the points are set, the sooner they will make contact and the later the light will turn on. My objective through this whole thing has been to get that light to turn on later in the process of rotating the shaft/spark advance. SO I re-re-set the points gap to .35, just to see what would happen. It worked as I had thought, and I was able to baaaaarely sneak the advance to the F mark without the light coming on (well, the light came on AT the F mark). Thing is, to achieve this I had to rotate the points plate absolutely as far as is would go clockwise- totally buried in that direction, and same for the smaller 3-4 plate. This just doesn't seem right to me, I can't imagine that I would have to make such an extreme adjustment to get the lines to match up and the bike timed-- really, how could that be? My suspicion was affirmed when I tried to kick the bike on, which takes two kicks max normally, and it wouldn't fire up- not even close.
I'm racking my brain to fig this out- and also learning a bit about points theory, which is nice. Still, what could it be? Bad condensers maybe? They were replaced about 1000 miles ago.
Thoughts?

[work9to5]

Do you have a multimeter? Easy to check condensers if you have one. Do they look not so great, off color, old? They do last awhile but can fail. They're a cheap part $4, I replace them when I start a new build every time. Also still if you have a bad condenser you can still set the timing. Post a clear pic of your points plate with your timing advanced to 1-4. Maybe I'll see something you're missing. Also .35 is in manufacturer spec (beaker point gap 0.3-0.4mm) and yes I have had to turn an advancer plate all the way in one direction to get the right setting.

I don't think you mentioned why you're doing the timing? What went wrong? Was the bike running previously?

[kippstakes]

Do you have a multimeter? Easy to check condensers if you have one. Do they look not so great, off color, old? They do last awhile but can fail. They're a cheap part $4, I replace them when I start a new build every time. Also still if you have a bad condenser you can still set the timing. Post a clear pic of your points plate with your timing advanced to 1-4. Maybe I'll see something you're missing. Also .35 is in manufacturer spec (beaker point gap 0.3-0.4mm) and yes I have had to turn an advancer plate all the way in one direction to get the right setting.

I don't think you mentioned why you're doing the timing? What went wrong? Was the bike running previously?

The condensers don't look bad, but I do have a multimeter and can look up how to test them.
The bike has always ran a little rough. Just out of troubleshooting curiosity I decided to have a look at the timing and it ended up being off by a pretty large margin. Now I'm just fighting to get it back to where it should be.

[Deltarider]

For the moment the condensers are not the problem, although I do not like much that yellow wire near it's condenser. It is almost loose. Maybe you should isolate it with a bit of tape. Make also sure none of the tiny bolts and washers at the back of the breakers can make ground contact. I assume you have mounted both advancer and breakerpoints correctly. As far as I can see you have OEM components which is good. Personally I would like to see that center 6mm bolt right in the middle of that slotted hole in the big hex but I am not quite sure that will make all the difference. If you checked and doublechecked and all is well, you could loosen the three bolts of the total assembly somewhat and check the groundplate for any radial play. But looking at the photo, it looks quite snug. If that's nevertheless the case, you may need to shim one of the three bolts. I believe that is described in the FAQ section of this forum.

The problem I'm having is that the timing marks are way off (ahead of/to the right of) the F/fire line when the light comes on, for both 1-4 and 2-3. In fact, the timing mark on the case lines up with the TDC marks on the advancer instead.

I am not sure if I understand this well (in particular the "F/fire line") but the second sentence suggests ignition is late. Anyway have another look at the pic I posted and make sure you understand that the yellow mark is the one you need to line up with the fixed case mark to time the ignition (static). Pardon me if this all too obvious - but we must be sure - the crank is supposed to turn clockwise.
Here a list that can be handy.
When you turn breaker 1+4 clockwise you reduce the gap and retard the ignition timing of 1+4.
When you turn breaker 1+4 counterclockwise you increase the gap and advance the ignition timing of 1+4.
But...
When you turn breaker 2+3 clockwise you increase the gap and advance the ignition timing of 2+3.
When you turn breaker 2+3 counterclockwise you reduce the gap and retard the ignition timing of 2+3.
When you turn the total baseplate clockwise you retard ignition timing.
When you turn the baseplate counterclockwise you advance ignition timing.

[work9to5]

Replace that top condenser. Condensers are kinda like batteries. You wouldn't use a battery with a dent in it would ya. Clean that plate up too. Do the points snap with force? Like if you pull em back with your finger they fly back into place? The reason I ask is it just looks generally dirty in there dirt over time can really add wear to parts. Especially cheap parts like points. It's possible that one or both of your points are just worn out/don't have the rebound that they need to hit and open when they need to. All that dirt, especially around those rubber areas in the points (worse on 1-4 side) point me in that direction. Just a thought. Other than that the leads from your condensers and ground (yellow, blue, 2greens). I don't separate them like that. And I don't know if this would effect them (someone might wanna chime in here, this may just be a personal thing of mine) I put them flush against each other. Like next to each other touching with the "bulge" from the wire lead sitting opposite of each other. Can you describe how it was running rough before? Back firings? Gas smell from exhaust?

[Deltarider]

Let's concentrate on the timing first. The condensers can come later if there's indication there's a problem.

My points should be spotless, or close to it.

Their fiber heeles are not worn, are they (due to lack of oil in the little felt that lubes the cam)? That could explain it if all the rest is well.

[jonda500]

The range is 0.3-0.4mm / 014-016 thou's. Set to the LARGER gap(.4mm or 016) as this will advance the timing to fix your issue and because the gap will get smaller over time with use.
John

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!

[kippstakes]

For the moment the condensers are not the problem, although I do not like much that yellow wire near it's condenser. It is almost loose. Maybe you should isolate it with a bit of tape. Make also sure none of the tiny bolts and washers at the back of the breakers can make ground contact. I assume you have mounted both advancer and breakerpoints correctly. As far as I can see you have OEM components which is good. Personally I would like to see that center 6mm bolt right in the middle of that slotted hole in the big hex but I am not quite sure that will make all the difference. If you checked and doublechecked and all is well, you could loosen the three bolts of the total assembly somewhat and check the groundplate for any radial play. But looking at the photo, it looks quite snug. If that's nevertheless the case, you may need to shim one of the three bolts. I believe that is described in the FAQ section of this forum.

The problem I'm having is that the timing marks are way off (ahead of/to the right of) the F/fire line when the light comes on, for both 1-4 and 2-3. In fact, the timing mark on the case lines up with the TDC marks on the advancer instead.

I am not sure if I understand this well (in particular the "F/fire line") but the second sentence suggests ignition is late. Anyway have another look at the pic I posted and make sure you understand that the yellow mark is the one you need to line up with the fixed case mark to time the ignition (static). Pardon me if this all too obvious - but we must be sure - the crank is supposed to turn clockwise.
Here a list that can be handy.
When you turn breaker 1+4 clockwise you reduce the gap and retard the ignition timing of 1+4.
When you turn breaker 1+4 counterclockwise you increase the gap and advance the ignition timing of 1+4.
But...
When you turn breaker 2+3 clockwise you increase the gap and advance the ignition timing of 2+3.
When you turn breaker 2+3 counterclockwise you reduce the gap and retard the ignition timing of 2+3.
When you turn the total baseplate clockwise you retard ignition timing.
When you turn the baseplate counterclockwise you advance ignition timing.

I went ahead and insulate the exposed yellow wire- it was tight in its connector, the insulation had just receded a bit.
There doesn't seem to be any radial play, it appears solid.
The yellow/F is the line I've been attempting to line up with, confirmed. I will include a diagram I sketched from research I'd done prior to setting the points/timing. I've heard this line referred to as the 'fire/firing' point on the advance, maybe I read wrong. Anyway...
I also tested the condensers and they both check out. I have a spare pair which also test good; I'm think about throwing those in just to see if a difference is made.
The breakers appear to work properly- when I open/close them manually the light turns on/off, which leads me to believe that they are not grounded out anywhere.
I'll throw in the spare points and tell you what happens, though I doubt it will make a diff.

[kippstakes]

Replace that top condenser. Condensers are kinda like batteries. You wouldn't use a battery with a dent in it would ya. Clean that plate up too. Do the points snap with force? Like if you pull em back with your finger they fly back into place? The reason I ask is it just looks generally dirty in there dirt over time can really add wear to parts. Especially cheap parts like points. It's possible that one or both of your points are just worn out/don't have the rebound that they need to hit and open when they need to. All that dirt, especially around those rubber areas in the points (worse on 1-4 side) point me in that direction. Just a thought. Other than that the leads from your condensers and ground (yellow, blue, 2greens). I don't separate them like that. And I don't know if this would effect them (someone might wanna chime in here, this may just be a personal thing of mine) I put them flush against each other. Like next to each other touching with the "bulge" from the wire lead sitting opposite of each other. Can you describe how it was running rough before? Back firings? Gas smell from exhaust?

The points seem to have a strong spring load and snap back with good force, from what I can tell. I will consider a new set of points, but do you really think that that would account for such a large spark advance/timing discrepancy?
The bike actually ran fairly strong. It started first kick typcally. Stumbled a bit around 3/4 throttle during acceleration and then would smooth out-- might be a symptom of the larger mains I threw in a week ago. Overall however it has always seemed a bit weak, and has always had a progressive deterioration in performance as it heated up (a plug chop revealed lean running on the mains, so I'm hoping the larger set will treat this symptom- particularly after I install new, less-restrictive baffles... but anyway). No gas smell in the exhaust, all cylinders seem to fire and burn pretty much evenly. 1-4 were burning a bit hotter than 2-3, which is one of the reasons I decided to check timing, but the difference was nominal- maybe 40' F hotter on 1-4, measured on the pipes.

[Deltarider]

I'll throw in the spare points and tell you what happens, though I doubt it will make a diff.

Just for the record, you may compare the fiber heels to see if there's any difference.
Now that we've determined that you have OEM parts, that they're mounted correctly and in good order I see no reason you shouldn't be able to set the gaps and timing within spec. I can only advice to try again. Be aware that in the process if you exercise pressure (tools) you'll sometimes see variations.

[kippstakes]

I'll throw in the spare points and tell you what happens, though I doubt it will make a diff.

Just for the record, you may compare the fiber heels to see if there's any difference.
Now that we've determined that you have OEM parts, that they're mounted correctly and in good order I see no reason you shouldn't be able to set the gaps and timing within spec. I can only advice to try again. Be aware that in the process if you exercise pressure (tools) you'll sometimes see variations.

I went ahead and ordered new points. I will get those installed and set and see if things improve. Thank you, all, for the advice so far.

[kippstakes]

Done. I installed two new points- same results. I swapped out both condensers with the spares (just for ruling it out-- all four condensers tested out fine)- same results.
This is perplexing. I have adjusted the plate as far clockwise as possible and it does not make it to the T line.
The light comes on when the points plate is in the position pictured.

I am running out of ideas. Is there anything I am missing or could try at this point-- I refuse to believe that this bike defies physics and cannot be timed.
Thanks

[firebane]

Done. I installed two new points- same results. I swapped out both condensers with the spares (just for ruling it out-- all four condensers tested out fine)- same results.
This is perplexing. I have adjusted the plate as far clockwise as possible and it does not make it to the T line.
The light comes on when the points plate is in the position pictured.

I am running out of ideas. Is there anything I am missing or could try at this point-- I refuse to believe that this bike defies physics and cannot be timed.
Thanks

How large are those washers under the button heads? Are they possibly causing a misalignment in your adjustments?

Take a picture with the advancer set to the "T" mark and the plate set to the middle of the top screw hole and show the points gap.

It really sounds like your not gapped correctly causing an issue with the initial timing.

[work9to5]

Looks like you're super close. Lemme ask you this, where are you gapping the points? When they are widest in a rotation is when you're supposed to. Try gapping them again (like three times) and see if you can get it a bit closer. I have had these exact problems before and only resolved itself after the try and try again method 🙄🔫. If you can't get it there by my next day off I'll post a vid to this page giving a how to. And will send my cell# so you can vid what you're doing and maybe I can pick it out. Goodluck man

[kerryb]

I would like to applaud all the guys who have so patiently tried very hard to help solve this problem with no snide remarks or accusations.  Just plain good advice and assistance.  You should all be proud of yourselves!   Kippstakes, keep at it, you will succeed and be very satisfied with your results.  I was lucky and had my old-school father-in-law mechanic helping last time I did this.  Hope I remember how next time!  (I bookmarked this thread)

always an adventure...kb

[kippstakes]

I would like to applaud all the guys who have so patiently tried very hard to help solve this problem with no snide remarks or accusations.  Just plain good advice and assistance.  You should all be proud of yourselves!   Kippstakes, keep at it, you will succeed and be very satisfied with your results.  I was lucky and had my old-school father-in-law mechanic helping last time I did this.  Hope I remember how next time!  (I bookmarked this thread)

I will enthusiastically second this. I really appreciate you all pooling your expertise trying to help me out of this little jam; I can't thank you enough for your time and effort.
I plan to take another stab it her tomorrow during my day off. I will let you know how far I get and post pics to those who requested them.

Thanks again, all

always an adventure...kb

[firebane]

I will give you a very quick and easy starting point.

With the advancer set with 1/4 at tdc rotate 90 clockwise then put the plate on with the top screw in the middle of the plate hole.

That is where you want to set the .014 gap.

[kippstakes]

Done. I installed two new points- same results. I swapped out both condensers with the spares (just for ruling it out-- all four condensers tested out fine)- same results.
This is perplexing. I have adjusted the plate as far clockwise as possible and it does not make it to the T line.
The light comes on when the points plate is in the position pictured.

I am running out of ideas. Is there anything I am missing or could try at this point-- I refuse to believe that this bike defies physics and cannot be timed.
Thanks

How large are those washers under the button heads? Are they possibly causing a misalignment in your adjustments?

Take a picture with the advancer set to the "T" mark and the plate set to the middle of the top screw hole and show the points gap.

It really sounds like your not gapped correctly causing an issue with the initial timing.

Here it is.
ALSO, since it would seem that, since the light is coming on too soon in the 'cycle', the point is opening too early... or I thought it was a theory worth testing.
I set the points to a narrow 0.30mm to see what results I'd get. Turned out I hit the F mark on 'time' at the plate position you see here. I went ahead and set 2/3 also, barely inching it in with the plate nudged all the way in the direction pictured (if you can see it).
My hopes were high, however the bike won't start- not even close. I went from a bike that was considerably off time and started first kick to a bike that seems to be right on the mark and won't start. Can't understand it.

[firebane]

Yeah your gaps are way off. Your 2/3 is closed when it should be open.

[kippstakes]

I will give you a very quick and easy starting point.

With the advancer set with 1/4 at tdc rotate 90 clockwise then put the plate on with the top screw in the middle of the plate hole.

That is where you want to set the .014 gap.

I might start from scratch since the bike doesn't seem to be responding to my last attempt. I will start with your advice. Thank you.

[HondaMan]

OK,  a little deeper: When you rev the engine up, does the timing go past the full-advance marks? If not when they are set too early, the spark advancer is not moving correctly. This is common: there are some thin shims under the points cam, minimum 2 to reduce friction. Many are gone today, as some were made from plastic which wore itself away. These shims make the points cam sit squarely on the post so the timing stays correct. When they are missing, the timing usually over-advances at low engine speeds, or it sometimes jams the advancer and won't let it advance at all (or only partway). The first check for this is: use feeler gages to test test clearance between the face of the points cam itself and the back of that big nut. It should be in the range of 0.002"-0.006", no more than 0.008". If it is more than this, you will need to make some new shims. They can be made with a sharp blade and thin brass sheet (like 0.002" thick sheet), and there must be at least 2 as one will jam and drag (much like none).

The other thing that comes to mind here: the O-rings in the carb castings that bolt to the head of the 500/550/350F/400F engines have rubber O-rings in the engine side. These get hard from heat and years, and no longer seal. This will make starting and low-RPM performance poor, and carb adjustments difficult at best. On the 500/550 engine, these O-rings are the same size as the ones inside the valve caps. Often, a hard-starting 500/550 has leaking O-rings here.

[Deltarider]

OK,  a little deeper: When you rev the engine up, does the timing go past the full-advance marks? If not when they are set too early, the spark advancer is not moving correctly.

At the moment he doesn't succeed to get his motor running. Hondaman, what you wrote about the advancer, does that go for both Hitachi and Toyo (TEC) advancers? I ask because I have two Toyo (TEC) advancers here and they don't seem to have so many shims. On mine there's one thin one only. His is also a Toyo (TEC). I'm afraid he has to go through the gapping procedure once more. Check everything like if you really are using the right feeler gauges (0,3-0,4 mm or 0.012-0.016) and you measure with the cam in the right (at it highest) position.
Looking at the pic again... personally I would like to see that center 6mm bolt right in the middle of that slotted hole in the big hex but I am not quite sure that will make all the difference.