Topic: Stuck bolt got me stuck..

[calj737]

Nonsense, steel and aluminum will certainly fuse from dissimilar metal corrosion. You've never had a bleeder screw stuck in a brake caliper?

Respectfully, John, a stuck bleeder screw is from the corrosion of the screw interfering with the screw unthreading. It has nothing to do with a steel screw becoming fused to an aluminum caliper. Corrosion can and will create locked up threads preventing (in this case) steel from being unscrewed. Or, in the OP's situation (and Keith's) enough corrosion from accumulated moisture and grime to create an interference fit that prevents the steel bolt/rod from moving. But there is absolutely no way that carbon steel and aluminum will "fuse" together. Trust me, if it could, it would make welding steel nuts to aluminum plates a breeze. And that won't work either 

But if you ever invent a method for welding the 2 together, you'd be the richest man in the world immediately. 

[calj737]

I would recommend more than some heat. Hit that thing with propane, penetrant and a hammer to shock it. You're not going to damage anything. The motor will act like a giant heat sink.

If heat and penetrant doesn't work I would weld a big nut on the threaded end and crank on it from that side. Once it breaks free just cut the bolt head off and slide it out.

This is the approach I'd take too, with a slight deviation. Instead of welding a nut onto the bolt, I'd use a TIG torch and attack the end of the rod from both sides. This will heat the rod only beyond propane, and dislodge and free up any rust making the bolt much, much easier to drive out. You can of course hit the rod with Kroil promptly after breaking the arc to help wick it deeper into the engine boss.

You WON'T hurt the motor, so allay your fears. The bolt will get super hot by 1,200* and that's not even close to breaking the oxide layer on the cases. If you were to use a thermal meter on the end of the bolt while you heated the bosses with propane, you'd see the cases (as Dave correctly stated) will suck the heat up. I'd be surprised if the bolt even got near 250* while the boss might see 400*. All these temps sound high, but in actuality they are not. And they are non-destructive to the strength or stability of these parts in question.

Acid on aluminum (anodized) is a bit tricky. All depends on the type of acid, the dilution, and whether its submerged or applied. Nevertheless, you have lots of options now, so do what you feel comfortable with. And if you get in a pickle over the bolt, let me know, I'll do what I can to help you with a replacement.

[materializer]

I would recommend more than some heat. Hit that thing with propane, penetrant and a hammer to shock it. You're not going to damage anything. The motor will act like a giant heat sink.

If heat and penetrant doesn't work I would weld a big nut on the threaded end and crank on it from that side. Once it breaks free just cut the bolt head off and slide it out.

This is the approach I'd take too, with a slight deviation. Instead of welding a nut onto the bolt, I'd use a TIG torch and attack the end of the rod from both sides. This will heat the rod only beyond propane, and dislodge and free up any rust making the bolt much, much easier to drive out. You can of course hit the rod with Kroil promptly after breaking the arc to help wick it deeper into the engine boss.

You WON'T hurt the motor, so allay your fears. The bolt will get super hot by 1,200* and that's not even close to breaking the oxide layer on the cases. If you were to use a thermal meter on the end of the bolt while you heated the bosses with propane, you'd see the cases (as Dave correctly stated) will suck the heat up. I'd be surprised if the bolt even got near 250* while the boss might see 400*. All these temps sound high, but in actuality they are not. And they are non-destructive to the strength or stability of these parts in question.

Acid on aluminum (anodized) is a bit tricky. All depends on the type of acid, the dilution, and whether its submerged or applied. Nevertheless, you have lots of options now, so do what you feel comfortable with. And if you get in a pickle over the bolt, let me know, I'll do what I can to help you with a replacement.

@ CAL

This weekend I will most likely add double nuts or weld a lever onto the treaded side and force it in stereo to come loose.
I'm weary of hammering any more onto the bolt as it is stuck in the Alu. I will however consider to heat up the boss with a soldering torch:
Like this: ?


There is however a factor that I am unsure about: leave the engine oil in (help dissipate heat) ?

Also; very kind of you to offer track down a replacement bolt incase that is needed.

To all: thanks a bunch for all your to the point advise.

Monk

[calj737]

Drain the oil if you tip the motor over. A soldering torch will help, but it likely won't get the bolt or cases hot enough to really make the difference. It takes about 4-5 minutes with a propane torch to heat aluminum (1/4"->) up to hot enough for welding. If you can, local home stores/hardward stores usually sell small propane bottles and triggers for a cheap enough amount that it makes it worth having around the shop. Its pretty safe stuff really and given the state of that bolt, this may not be your last effort 

[Bailgang]

But if you ever invent a method for welding the 2 together, you'd be the richest man in the world immediately. 

There actually already is and it's called explosive welding, bonding, cladding but it takes a big boom to do it and it doesn't work with all dissimilar metals but I agree wit you Cal, what "fusing" the OP is experiencing is from corrosion causing a mechanical bond or interference and definitely not metallurgically fused.

[materializer]

Drain the oil if you tip the motor over. A soldering torch will help, but it likely won't get the bolt or cases hot enough to really make the difference. It takes about 4-5 minutes with a propane torch to heat aluminum (1/4"->) up to hot enough for welding. If you can, local home stores/hardward stores usually sell small propane bottles and triggers for a cheap enough amount that it makes it worth having around the shop. Its pretty safe stuff really and given the state of that bolt, this may not be your last effort 

cal,

once again thanx for your reply, just one question could you link a pic of the type of propane set you suggest? Language barrier makes it hard for me to exactly know what type you mean.

Thanx !

Monk

[materializer]

But if you ever invent a method for welding the 2 together, you'd be the richest man in the world immediately. 

There actually already is and it's called explosive welding, bonding, cladding but it takes a big boom to do it and it doesn't work with all dissimilar metals but I agree wit you Cal, what "fusing" the OP is experiencing is from corrosion causing a mechanical bond or interference and definitely not metallurgically fused.

OP: yes that what I intended to say    

[calj737]

Here you go, Monk

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-TS3000KC-Self-Igniting-Torch-Kit-336626/203368720

[calj737]

Hey, by the way, Monk, if this motor is going to be the heart of your wife's PS Homage bike, cut that bolt and throw it away. I'll turn you up some stainless hangars with ARP 12-pt nuts for maximum sex appeal 

[materializer]

Hey, by the way, Monk, if this motor is going to be the heart of your wife's PS Homage bike, cut that bolt and throw it away. I'll turn you up some stainless hangars with ARP 12-pt nuts for maximum sex appeal 

CAL,

Mighty sweet! I'll give up on the bolt then and mill out the remainder when I overhaul the engine. I figure the fitting on that particular boss doesnt need to be tenth of a millimeter precise..

  So you saw the start of the build thread then yes my wife thats the most caring creation in the whole world and gives me every bit of freedom to pursue my compulsions deserves her own crutch rocket. If I can be the creator of her happiness, let it be done !

Do let me know where to donate any cost involved with the bolts, I'll wire you that dough straightaway! I'm in holland btw.

Kind regards,

Monk

[calj737]

When you begin to pull apart that motor, you can choose to replace all the motor bolts with ARP 12-pts. They are really gorgeous, incredibly strong (much stronger than needed really) and are made of a very high grade stainless. They will never corrode, tighten up beautifully, and will create a "jewelry" look to your motor (something your most beautiful wife will appreciate  ).

I'll standby on cutting them because there's 1 or 2 more motor case bolts that you can not obtain in that fastener style. I buy all of mine from www.allensfasteners.com
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61

The website is a bit clunky, so you need to scroll down to metric/stainless/then the head style (hex or 12-pt). Locate the diameter, then choose the length, then the quantity you want. If they won't ship them to you, ship it to me, I'll forward to you.

This is all assuming you choose this route of bolts... 

[materializer]

When you begin to pull apart that motor, you can choose to replace all the motor bolts with ARP 12-pts. They are really gorgeous, incredibly strong (much stronger than needed really) and are made of a very high grade stainless. They will never corrode, tighten up beautifully, and will create a "jewelry" look to your motor (something your most beautiful wife will appreciate  ).

I'll standby on cutting them because there's 1 or 2 more motor case bolts that you can not obtain in that fastener style. I buy all of mine from www.allensfasteners.com
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61

The website is a bit clunky, so you need to scroll down to metric/stainless/then the head style (hex or 12-pt). Locate the diameter, then choose the length, then the quantity you want. If they won't ship them to you, ship it to me, I'll forward to you.

This is all assuming you choose this route of bolts... 

I live near Eindhoven Netherlands, loads of high tech industry here. So also the supplies in metal ware is really good! I know of a shop where I come regularly, they most definitely have the stainless ARP 12-pts stuff It is indeed what I have intended already Youre right way to go !

Monk

[slikwilli420]

But if you ever invent a method for welding the 2 together, you'd be the richest man in the world immediately. 
[/quote]

Too late, someone beat you to it:

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/blog/can-i-weld-aluminum-to-steel.cfm

[Don R]

 A lot of extreme ideas. I'd just soak with your best penetrating oil , tap, heat and repeat. Spin this way then that way as soon as it will turn. I had a frozen one that I double nutted then turned it with an impact wrench while pushing on the end with a drift. Oiled, reversed, spun it back in to lube more of it then back out.
 Or dynamite.

[calj737]

But if you ever invent a method for welding the 2 together, you'd be the richest man in the world immediately. 

Too late, someone beat you to it:

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/blog/can-i-weld-aluminum-to-steel.cfm
[/quote]
Alas, its still not fusing steel to aluminum. Its using a bimetallic method. Something Sochiro never did...

"One side of the insert is welded steel to steel, and the other is welded aluminum to aluminum."