Author Topic: timing light question  (Read 4873 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 07:56:12 PM »
For idle you should be seeing the F mark lining up with the stationary witness mark. At full advance, 3k rpm or so, the witness mark should be between the two hash marks. If you can only get one of those lined up perfectly shoot for the advance marks. The F mark lining up at idle isn't as critical.

Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 08:00:10 PM »
yes at idle or my idle 1200-1400 rpm i can see the F mark line up with the witness mark almost perfectly.  when i twist the throttle it goes way past the 1-4 hash marks or 2-3 depending on which you are working on. 
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 12:59:52 AM »
Evinrude, just to be sure, I've posted a pic below. It's a CB500/550 advancer (I don't have a CB750 one at hand) but I'm confident yours is similar. The idea is that at let's say 3000 rpm (full advance) you should see the strobe flash when the two marks blue and green align with the case mark. There are two marks to indicate there's some range. At idle the yellow mark should align. Now to have those two lines (full advance) align is more important than the yellow. Timing at idle is not that critical. What is important however is that your breakerpoints gap is set correctly prior to timing. Any change in breakerpoints gap will change the timing so the correct working order is to check/set the breakerpoints gap first. BTW, often it's good enough to simply set the timing by adjusting the breakerpoints gap.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 01:14:21 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2017, 06:43:26 AM »
delta, when i raise the rpms i see the stud with the retaining clip (directly to the right of 1,4 mark) thru the peep hole.  also in order to get timing correct at idle i have the plate all the way clockwise.  points were gapped before and checked after.  what does that result point to? 

should i do it again and this time just focus on the advance setting at 3000 rpm?
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2017, 07:14:15 AM »
Do you have aftermarket (daichii) ignition components? That's indicative of aftermarket plate or points as well as slop in the points plate. Heard of shimming the plate? You may have to do that.

Could also be incorrect gap.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2017, 07:35:13 AM »
Quote
should i do it again and this time just focus on the advance setting at 3000 rpm?
Your motor will run 'fully advanced' most of the time, so it is much more important to have the timing correct at full advance than at idle. There's a lot more to say about this, but I leave it here. Now if I have set the breakerpoints gap exactly in the middle of 0,3 and 0,4 mm and I then have timed the full advance correctly, timing at idle will turn out to be spot on as a bonus. This is with genuine Honda parts and tells you how accurate these parts were built btw.
So there are a few things that should be OK. First the advancer itself and its springs (if it has been apart, please inform us). Then check you've set the breakerpoints gap when the breakers were opened at their widest and note that this position has nothing to do with any alignment of any marks! The widest position will be around some 90o crank rotation after the F (static) has passed the peephole. So at F the points start to open and some 90o further opening will be at its widest. That's where the gap should be measured. Please don't be offended if the above is all to obvious for you, but we must be sure.
Generally I'd advice to let the plates as they are and do the timing simply by adjusting the breakerpoints as practically all 'off timing' generates there. Unfortunately most owners have already read manuals like Clymer and Haynes (and even Honda) first and have already changed the position of the baseplates where in most cases a simple readjustment of the breakerpoints gap would  have been adequate.
 Please note also what Davebarbier said.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:46:33 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2017, 05:38:51 PM »
not sure if i have aftermarket or not.  i'll have to look.  as far as i can tell i have the points set fairly well at .015 gap.  dave please explain shimming the plate? 

delta, i have not myself taken the advancer and springs apart.  there is no telling what the POs have done.  i am taking note that at some 90 degrees the points should be at their widest.  not offended.  i'm a beginner here.  i get that the timing might be off and 90 degrees without having the timing set is a ball park number.  thanks for squaring that up for me.  i'm pretty sure that i have the points set correctly.  how do you mean you can set timing by adjusting points only?  i'm confused here. 

just some history.  the bike idles high about 1400.  engine at idle doesn't sound even and smooth.  i was told by another forum member to time it.  i'm sure it needs it.  i don't think my first attempt at timing was well done even though i followed instructions here http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/Static_and_Strobe_Timing.pdf other than idle the bike runs pretty damn smooth and has plenty of power.  i truly think it needs to be timed correctly. 

one other thing.  the fact that my plate is turned all the way clockwise is this an indication as to why i'm seeing that bolt on advance timing?  that i am way ahead?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:41:03 PM by evinrude7 »
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Offline drumstyx

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2017, 05:59:20 PM »
where does, for instance, your bike idle dave?

Maybe a hair over 1k RPM indicated on the tach once warm. The PD46C has a fast idle cam so it raises the idle automatically when you pull the choke.

Damn that's smart. 550 k4 is '78 right? Wouldn't we expect the '78 750 to have a similar tech in the carbs? I can't recall a mechanism like that on my 78 750 carbs. Not really a problem though -- couple twists of the throttle, choke out, hit the starter and she's good.

Offline Airborne 82nd

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2017, 07:35:26 PM »
where does, for instance, your bike idle dave?

Maybe a hair over 1k RPM indicated on the tach once warm. The PD46C has a fast idle cam so it raises the idle automatically when you pull the choke.

Damn that's smart. 550 k4 is '78 right? Wouldn't we expect the '78 750 to have a similar tech in the carbs? I can't recall a mechanism like that on my 78 750 carbs. Not really a problem though -- couple twists of the throttle, choke out, hit the starter and she's good.

Yes the 78 750 K and F have a fast idle cam operated by the choke. Plus they are the easiest to use the clear tube method for checking fuel level.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2017, 08:43:40 PM »
where does, for instance, your bike idle dave?

Maybe a hair over 1k RPM indicated on the tach once warm. The PD46C has a fast idle cam so it raises the idle automatically when you pull the choke.

Damn that's smart. 550 k4 is '78 right? Wouldn't we expect the '78 750 to have a similar tech in the carbs? I can't recall a mechanism like that on my 78 750 carbs. Not really a problem though -- couple twists of the throttle, choke out, hit the starter and she's good.

Yup, '78. I know nothing of 750 carbs but as is stated above, I guess they do have a fast idle cam. There's an adjustment screw in between carb 2 & 3.


Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2017, 09:05:35 PM »
i kind of follow what he's saying there but don't understand his reasoning for a shim or how a shim will enable farther turning of the plate to reach correct timing.  what interests me is when he speaks about how points location on the plate is directly relative to how far you have to turn the plate in order to reach correct timing.  maybe i'm making that part up or inferring something different than what he is explaining. 

leads me to a question i wrote above and what delta was saying about fixing timing issue some times with just adjusting the points.  the points mechanisms aren't actually set in the same exact place on the plate when you loosen them up and remove them from the plate and then place them back on the plate or are they? 

the question i wrote above is this.  the fact that my plate is turned all the way clockwise, is this an indication as to why i'm seeing that bolt on advance timing?  that i am way ahead?
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2017, 01:29:46 AM »
Adjusting the breakerpoints gap will change the timing, adjusting the timing (= moving the baseplate) will not change the breakerpoints gap. You can experiment with this.
Take breaker 1+4 for an example. When I turn it counterclockwise, I increase it's maximum gap because what I do, is that I move its fiber heel closer to the cam and this causes the cam pushing the breakerpoint open earlier and so timing will be advanced. By turning it clockwise I decrease it's maximum gap because what I now do, is moving it's fiber heel further away from the cam and so this will result in that the cam pushes the breakerpoint open later so timing will be retarded.
Now take breakerpoint gap 2+3. It's placed in a mirrorlike position so now it's the opposite. When I turn it counterclockwise I in effect move it's fiber heel away from the cam and this will result in that the cam will push the breakerpoint open later so timing will be retarded (a smaller maximum gap). When I turn it clockwise I in effect move it's fiber heel closer to the cam and this will result in that he cam will push the breakerpoint open earlier so timing will be advanced (a wider maximum gap). At least on mine it does. ;D It's maybe a bit difficult to grasp, but if you find time to play with it, you'll understand. You can make a little drawing and keep it in your document compartment underneath the seat.
Now by adjusting the baseplate, you move the whole set not changing the breakerpoints gaps in the process.
Moving the baseplate counterclockwise will effect in that the cam point will reach the fiber heels of both breakerpoints earlier and so results in advance.
Moving the baseplate clockwise will mean the cam will reach the fiber heels of both breakerpoints later and so results in retard.
Now let's assume the bike has left the production line with the ignition perfectly set: breakerpoints gap perfect and timing spot on. The customer will ride his bike. What will change after a long, long time? Well, not the position of the plate, that was and still is securily fastened by bolts. What will change however a bit and after many, many miles is that the breakerpoints gap will change somewhat, either by wear of their fiber heels or by the points getting burnt in somewhat. And we know - read the above - that any change in breakerpoints gap will effect the timing. So if you replace the breakerpoints by new, the only thing to do, is to mount them in the same position as their predecessors were. It is very unlikely that the position of the baseplate has changed as it has been securily fastened from the start and so there's no reason why you couldn't do this by using the strobe and aim for a correct timing. If the new breakers are identical with their predecessors, automatically their gaps will be within spec.
Now what many do, after reading a manual, is that they change the position of the baseplate. Little do they realise that their manual describes a total operation as if the bike has been in parts. Unfortunately this means that these owners have to go the full route that the manufacturer had to do: first setting the gaps, than the timing.
You are in that process now. Here's a tip. If you're satisfied with the timing, take a box cutter and make a carf from the baseplate to the case so that, whenever you're lost, you'll have a reference to where to start. Don't worry the carf will only be seen when you look for it.
I realise all the above is a bit much, but when you have the parts in your hand or look at them and close your eyes every now and then, you will understand.
Two Tired has decribed what play there can be between the plate and the case and what to do about it. I have never learned from him however whether his plate was the genuine Honda part or an imitation. Mine is OEM and I do not have that play. But that's just me. Others may chime in with their experience.
Another tip: to reduce the eventual wear of the fibers heel to practically zero, make sure the little felt is lubed. A bit of ceramic grease on the cam and you'll be fine.
Here's a little reminder.
Moving breaker 1+4 counterclockwise will increase maximum gap (decrease dwell) and advance 1+4 timing.
Moving breaker 1+4 clockwise will decrease its maximum gap (= increase dwell) and retard 1+4 timing.
Moving breaker 2+3 counterclockwise will decrease its maximum gap (increase dwell) and retard 2+3. Moving breaker 2+3 clockwise will increase its maximum gap (= decrease dwell) and advance 2+3 timing.
Moving baseplate counterclockwise will advance overall timing (no effect on breakerpoints gap).
Moving baseplate clockwise will retard overall timing (no effect on breakerpoints gap).
If your timing is way off, start by checking/adjusting the breakerpoints gap and then set the timing the static way. From there you can take the strobe to check ignition at full advance and check the correct working of the advancer in the process.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:48:40 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2017, 04:44:35 AM »
the points mechanisms aren't actually set in the same exact place on the plate when you loosen them up and remove them from the plate and then place them back on the plate or are they? 
No. There is a locating pin but since they can swivel on that to adjust gap you'll never get it exactly where it was before. You'll always have to verify.

the fact that my plate is turned all the way clockwise, is this an indication as to why i'm seeing that bolt on advance timing?  that i am way ahead?

Have you actually tried to adjust timing yet?

Offline PeWe

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2017, 04:49:29 AM »
i kind of follow what he's saying there but don't understand his reasoning for a shim or how a shim will enable farther turning of the plate to reach correct timing.  what interests me is when he speaks about how points location on the plate is directly relative to how far you have to turn the plate in order to reach correct timing.  maybe i'm making that part up or inferring something different than what he is explaining. 

leads me to a question i wrote above and what delta was saying about fixing timing issue some times with just adjusting the points.  the points mechanisms aren't actually set in the same exact place on the plate when you loosen them up and remove them from the plate and then place them back on the plate or are they? 
the question i wrote above is this.  the fact that my plate is turned all the way clockwise, is this an indication as to why i'm seeing that bolt on advance timing?  that i am way ahead?

Two Tired write that the entire base plate can move sideways, up-down since the diameter is smaller than the cut-out for it in the cases. It will not be centered then and points will open-close different.
If too much in one direction, the ignition might not be possible to set correctly. This explains why I could not set the timing when it was not possible to turn it more. Suddenly after some fiddling it was possible to set F at idle and full advance correctly too. I thought the point gap did that.
I'll check that next time. I'll measure the plates I have old Daichii and new TEC. Maybe an old TEC too. I'll also check if they are flat and not bending when tighten the 3 bolts.

EDIT: I measured 4 plates. 3 old Daichii and my fresh TEC sitting in my K6. All have same diameter 92.9mm. But the important measure is when seated in the 3 towers where the plate is seated. That might differ when assembled, though. I have vague memories about play. Last TEC sit rather tight
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:12:59 AM by PeWe »
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Offline Jimray23

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2017, 09:40:20 AM »
Heres a pdf download, someone did as for reference to set the timing on cb750. It has pics but its small, like 7 pages.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/Static_and_Strobe_Timing.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwie_4KOgujSAhVP6GMKHRnGDhoQFggoMAE&usg=AFQjCNFUxSZWVVhz5PnoSJlrTAQXZHUU0w&sig2=8T9OBj7-lyTK3Y90wRBspg

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Offline drumstyx

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2017, 06:09:07 PM »
where does, for instance, your bike idle dave?

Maybe a hair over 1k RPM indicated on the tach once warm. The PD46C has a fast idle cam so it raises the idle automatically when you pull the choke.

Damn that's smart. 550 k4 is '78 right? Wouldn't we expect the '78 750 to have a similar tech in the carbs? I can't recall a mechanism like that on my 78 750 carbs. Not really a problem though -- couple twists of the throttle, choke out, hit the starter and she's good.

Yes the 78 750 K and F have a fast idle cam operated by the choke. Plus they are the easiest to use the clear tube method for checking fuel level.

They do? Where? I didn't see anything that would do that when I rebuilt the carbs...

Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2017, 06:34:45 PM »
jim, pewe, dave and delta, thanks for the input.  yes i have attempted to set the timing with a light.  let me ask this.  should i start over and set it statically then go ahead and set the advance timing?  seems to me that even though i have the timing set perfectly when it idles my advance timing is off.  i will say that the bike runs nicely other than high idle. 
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Offline Jimray23

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2017, 07:00:51 PM »
I would at least pull the 1- 4 pistons to top dead center through the plug hole and that will tell u if your low idle timing marks are off. But yea i think i would set the timing at high idle, about 3000 rpm.

Jimmy
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 07:05:26 PM »
sorry jim if i don't follow you here.  pull the 1-4 pistons to tdc through the plug hole to tell if low idle timing marks are off?  you mean static time it? 
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2017, 07:34:57 PM »
i'll look forward to your post jim but in summation i think it's fair to say there is no magic bullet to getting a 70s cb to run perfectly.  it's a long process back from decay and the ones that get there use patience over haste. 
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Offline Jimray23

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2017, 07:41:31 PM »
I agree it is a long process but what i was saying was to see if the t timing mark was correct because the lines are supposed to be a certain degree or distance from aech other.

Jimmy
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2017, 07:50:53 PM »
that's another part i don't get.  i lined up the F mark for idle with a strobe.  what's the T mark for?  what's the difference? 
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Offline jonda500

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2017, 08:04:15 PM »
F = fire
T = top dead center
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: timing light question
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2017, 08:19:35 PM »
thanks
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