Author Topic: 76 550 top gear rev problem  (Read 6712 times)

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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2017, 10:32:27 PM »
You gotta match pace with the old girl.

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 03:15:45 PM »
Ok the more I work on this bike the easier it becomes and the more I notice that user error/ignorance is the cause of most problems.

So I'm thinking of replacing my caps with some NGKs since mine look like the originals and the studs were all rusted looking. While researching for the best I ran across an installation thread, on here I believe, that said the caps are to be twisted on, causing the wires to wrap around the stud. WOW!!!

I've been fanning out the wires to create a hole in the center and just pushing the caps on until they stop. I expect weak spark from this.

So I just went out and refanned the wires, this time twisting the caps on. What a world of difference, my idle is smooth as hell and it seems that my low rpm stutter is gone when I rev it, not under load tho.

When the new caps come in I expect this baby to run like a scalded dog, maybe a hit dog, lol.

Cant ride it due to tstorm but I'm thinking my problems are almost over. Now if I can just get this running tail light situated.
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 04:08:59 PM »
Count the number of teeth on the chain sprockets.

Check the carbs for main jets laying in the bottom of the bowl and no jet retainer springs.

And look for corrosion around the main jet holders ruining the seal of the jet orings.

Check for clean emulsifier tubes in all the carbs.

Compression numbers would be helpful info.

When passing, downshift 1 or 2 before throttle twist.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 05:13:07 PM »
Alls good except I never counted the teeth.
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 05:16:07 PM »
Too bad you can't try a run on the butt dyno now that you realized the trick with the plug caps!

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 07:04:53 PM »
Too bad you can't try a run on the butt dyno now that you realized the trick with the plug caps!

I'm on it soon as I get off tomorrow, and that's a fact lol.
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 12:41:35 PM »
If that has not fixed it, you should check your petcock for flow.  If it is not the one year only original a few have found the clone petcocks to have smaller internals on occasion and it slowed fuel delivery.  But, I would expect you to see this problem on higher gears at or near, or before you reach redline in those gears.
If your plug caps do not fix it, then I would see what the clear tube test shows and see the volume of fuel given by petcock in a timed period.
Running smaller fuel line can restrict your flow volume as well. 

Lloyd's advice is very sage wisdom, definitely things to investigate when looking to have max performance.

Welcome back TT, I am happy to see you here again!

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 04:50:16 PM »
Ok, now we're cooking with fire. Runs exceptionally well, can get 5th gear to 80 mph and it slowly climbs, I guess this is normal.

RAF, my petcock was fvcked, tube broke and was floating around in the tank. Drained the tank and noticed one side stopped before the other. I think the spark plug caps contributed to most of the problems.

Also, I have those cheap pods that is like running with nothing on the carbs. I got some unis coming in.

Overall, Id like to thank you guys for all the help and I will be posting a video of how she runs as of now.

Stay tuned...
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 05:02:53 PM »
Check the video and let me know if something sounds funny.


06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 06:40:26 PM »
Given that I'm listening on a phone, your bike doesn't sound bad at all.

One thing to consider is that with pods you may experience some issues at high speeds due to turbulent air. One thing the airbox does is protect the carbs from cross winds and such. But even with velocity stacks with no filter material I didn't have any noticeable issue going 90+

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2017, 07:24:29 PM »
The fifth gear is a long one.  Rolling on from 65/70 won't have much wow factor.
But 4th gear will go the distance with some added torque.  Take fourth up to 80/85, then shift for 5th and you'll get to the hundred from there.

The 550's will cruise at 75/80 in 5th all day.  And they'll do it smooth so long as everything is in tune. 

Glad ya got it all sorted, enjoy the summer!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2017, 07:30:17 PM »
Ok, now we're cooking with fire. Runs exceptionally well, can get 5th gear to 80 mph and it slowly climbs, I guess this is normal.

80 is routine.  It shouldn't show any signs of slow acceleration until about 90.

Also, I have those cheap pods that is like running with nothing on the carbs. I got some unis coming in.

You have the stock exhaust.  Why oh why do you not use the stock air box and filter?
The carbs are tuned for that air box and exhaust and runs famously with that combination.

With pods you are now looking at a carb rejet.  Pods alter the carb throat pressure, raising it closer to atmospheric.  The difference in pressure between the outside atmosphere and the carb throat is what pushes fuel through the carb's fuel orifices.

Picture a tube where vacuum is presented at one end.   At the tubes inlet end, the pressure is normal outside atmospheric.  Half way down the tube there is half the vacuum as what is presented.  Even while there is airflow there, is still a pressure drop within the tube.   This is called pressure equalization.  Low pressure at one end is equalized by the higher pressure at the other end.  Block the tube's inlet and the whole tube experiences source vacuum all along it's length.  Alternately, shut off the source vacuum end and the whole tube will experience the pressure presented at it's inlet.

The bike's intake was made with a length of tube.  Vacuum is presented by the falling piston at the intake valve seat end of the tube.   Air is sourced at the inlet of the air box and that length is about a foot and a half-ish.  The carb throat is also part of the tube and located about 1/3 the distance between the intake valve seat and the filter box inlet.

For simplicity, lets say the carb fuel jets are being pushed by 2/3 (66%) of what the falling piston develops, since it is 2/3rds the distance between the vacuum source and the inlet supply. ( It is closer to the vacuum source.)

Now take off the air box and put pods directly onto the carb inlets.  The inlet supply tube has now been shortened by nearly 2/3rds.  The carb throat is now about 2 inches away from atmospheric pressure air supply and about 8 inches away from the source vacuum presented.  The carb throat fuel jets now sees about 2/8th of the supplied vacuum or about 25% of what it saw with the stock air box arrangement.  From 66% of source vacuum to 25% of source vacuum is a loss of fuel flow push force of 41%.  All the carbs fuel jet orifices will experience a reduced flow fuel.  Pods do not present any less air volume than the stock air box for upwards of 3/4 or more of the engine's RPM range.  But, all pods shorten the inlet duct and alter the pressures by which the factory set the jet sizes in the carbs.  A 41% drop in available fuel pressure flow force necessitates increasing all the fuel orifice sizes to compensate for the loss of throat pressure differential induced by pod's intake runner length shortening.  In other words, pod conversion routinely demands a carb re-jett and re-tune.

Pods MAY allow more air flow volume than the stock airbox at RPMs hovering around Red line.  At all RPM ranges below7/8 of redline, the stock filter and box arrangement supply equal volumes of air compared to any pod filter.  The engine only demands just so much.

There are also other issues of turbulent air reaching into the carb throat upsetting the fuel orifice exit ports.  This is what the velocity stack portion of the stock air box address. 


Looked at your video.
FYI: The tank color is original for that year model.  Looks like a pretty nice survivor of the era.  I have the same model in orange.  Stock exhaust and air box.  It gets to 95 mph pretty easily even with a Vetter Quicksilver fairing fitted to it.  But, then the air drag resistance starts to demand more HP than the motor can produce.
... and it get 50 MPG.  I've never heard of any pod altered 550 getting close 50 MPG.  This speaks the power plant's overall efficiency of the model.

When new, the prices for the F and K model were nearly the same.  The difference is in the styling. Motors are the same for each model.  But, I think the F models were a bit lighter, due to the exhaust system difference.

Best of luck with your 550.
Don't see why you are unhappy with the stock airbox. Lots of engineering dollars and work went into that design.  Shame to throw it away.  But, if it's for sale, do let me know.  I think I have a project bike that can use it.

Do count the sprocket teeth for the drive chain.  Many cases where taller sprocket ratios were used, when the owner didn't like the higher cruise RPM compare to other bikes.   This actually diminishes the top speed capability, since there is no extra power provided to compensate and the ratio's mechanical advantage is diminished.

Cheers,
Lloyd
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline flatlander

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2017, 03:18:04 AM »
your video sounds fine.
listen to TT, he really knows what he's talking about. to add to his recommendation towards the stock airbox: with your stock 4-1 exhaust, that one is your limiting factor in terms of flow. you won't have any benefit from the pods so why bother faffing around with them?
in the stock airbox, the stock paper filter beats the aftermarket foam replacements (uni) in terms of flow. i tested them against each other on the dyno.

Offline 754

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2017, 04:45:19 AM »
Sounds a lot like low compression...
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Offline flatlander

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2017, 05:09:57 AM »
how can you tell, from the video sound that may not be super realistic?
not questioning, genuinely interested.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2017, 07:02:17 AM »
Checked out your vid.  Its good to see another bike resurrected.  Good work Fireblade.  8)
Pods certainly make getting the carbs off an easier task, but consider the airbox.  Its not all that bad for a sweet running bike.
TT is correct, if you stick with pods, a rejet will be needed.
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Offline 754

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2017, 10:00:50 AM »
Flatlander , were you asking me ?
 I am/was riding one with low compression.. No tuning will restore lowered compression.. If it only has 75 percent if the compression it should have, it cant hit normal top speed...its worn.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline flatlander

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2017, 10:30:26 AM »
yes, was asking you ;)

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2017, 12:39:43 PM »
With 6k miles I figured compression would be good but I don't know how those miles were acquired, damn.

I did rejet to 110 mains. I think these unis will help if not I'm thinking of a 2 piece stock airbox, much like most cars. I'm anal about dirt in bowls so I like to pull them to inspect but with that stock airbox... forget it lol
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline flatlander

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2017, 01:28:24 PM »
you can remove the bowls with the carb rack in place.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2017, 01:49:28 PM »
There is an FAQ on the 550 that tells you how to pull the carb rack.  New boots to the intake manifold are worth the investment, makes the job much easier.

Replace your carb float bowl screws with button head socket screws and you can drop the float bowls much easier.  Even on the side of the road if so inclined, provided that you packed that wrench in your tool kit.

Another downside of pods will be in rain, they can ingest water and when they get wet their draw of fuel changes drastically.  They can strand you.

You will lightly oil the Uni-s, but don't oil them too heavily...  I think you have Emgo pods.  They are merely decorative as you say.  Sell them on ebay or throw them away or give them to an enemy, someone you don't like.

Far less work and classic looks to stay with stock airbox.  For a stock motor you will not see any improvement in anyway using the pods.  They can be a real bear to tune and jet with pods on a stock motor.  A modified motor presents different requirements as well as having higher fuel needs...there are experienced folks who have jetted for pods on modified motors...

Very pretty Candy Sapphire Blue bike.  A very nice survivor that will clean up and polish up nicely.  You picked it up in Charlotte, so where are you located?  Is that NC or VA...from your accent and southern drawl I think it is likely you are from NC or maybe SC.
TwoTired is really one of the most knowledgeable 550 guys on this forum.  It is good to have him back with us, I have missed him.

A PO has painted the front headlight ears black, they were chrome.

If removing the side covers is stiff, do yourself a favor and buy some new grommets for the side covers, they will go on without any struggle and you will not risk breaking them getting them on or off.

Take care Riley...until your next update...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2017, 02:13:09 PM »
Raf, I'm definitely a Carolina boy South, can't get rid of that drawl for hell.

TT, I appreciate your wisdom and I still have the stock stuff. If these unis doesn't work I'm going back to stock everything.

Stay tuned... I will update so that someone else struggling may find the answers they seek.
06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550

Offline calj737

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2017, 03:46:41 AM »
I just peeked at your video. I could not tell clearly, but your throttle cables (there's a moment when they are visible under the tank) appear to be missing the "push" side? Have you verified you have the correct push/pull set installed??

As for how the bike "sounds", to me it sounds like you have a cam chain rattle and are in desperate need of a vacuum synch. But that can be very misleading due to the camera microphone, the exhaust pointed at brick, and the negative influence of SC-drawl on a Japanese bike  ;D (Kidding about that-)

Move the bike away from the house, clearly out in the yard, and get a decent audio clip. And check on those throttle cables-
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2017, 06:16:37 AM »
a little silicone spray on the side cover grommets helps with installing/removing side covers. 
cb750 k6 - ugly

Offline FIREBLADE74

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Re: 76 550 top gear rev problem
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2017, 10:03:31 AM »
Ok, got the unis on and wow! Now I can feel 5th pulling away from 80, winds were gusting to 20mph so I couldn't really run it like wanted to and record.

So to anybody going with pods don't skimp out, get quality brands!!!

Also does that tacky oil fvck with the carbs?
I only oiled the outside, I figured the sucking would pull in the oil.

Either way I'm happy, I'll post a video as soon as these windy days die down. Thanks again fellas for all your help!!!

06 CBR1000RR, 76 CB550