Author Topic: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5  (Read 817 times)

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Offline jkot55

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Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« on: April 25, 2017, 07:09:23 am »
How do you get the collar out?  I am performing some maintenance on my swingarm since I could not get it to take grease.  I have it off the bike and removed those plastic/phenolic bushings and what must have been the felt washers that got pretty unidentifiable over the years.  I have no history prior to 2008 with this bike.  I have a shop manual (original Honda manual) and I also have Mark Paris' book.  He talks about cost-cutting redesigning done for late K5 models.  My bike has a MFG date of late in 1974 so I am not sure but the collar does appear to be one piece.  Diagrams all show 2-inch-or-so bushings but mine does not have that.  Based on Mark's book I was expecting to have a grease fitting in the center area of the swing arm pivot housing but it does not.  The fittings are on each end of the swing arm bolt. 

Before disassembly I loosened the swingarm bolt and found it to then take grease.  Movement seemed to be restored until I retightened it.  Then it seemed bound.  I tried tapping with a hammer but not wanting to wreck anything I did not hit it very hard.  I heated it with a propane torch, tried PB blaster, and now have it soaking in a bath of acetone and ATF mix.

Follow up question:  where can I get the end-cap-like plastic bushings (they have a lip on them)?  I heard there are brass ones available, where can I get those?  Do I need to replace the felt washers too?  If so, who has them?

Note:  the rest of my project is to replace steering head bearings and races, front and rear wheel bearings (double-sided seals, and new Avon roadrider tires.  Can't wait to have this back on the road.  I picked up the bike in 2008 and only replaced the exhaust with OEM (4 into 4) and added Mark Paris' transistorized ignition.  What a fun bike!

Thank you in advance for your help.
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Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2017, 10:20:10 am »
You can still get the stock pieces from Honda.

However most folks go for bronze bushings.
Many of us have used these bushings.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-250-360-400-500-550-750-Four-swingarm-bronze-bushing-set-bearing-new-/282075118558?vxp=mtr&hash=item41acfcbbde

If you go with bronze you won't need the plastic "top hat" pieces or the felt rings.
Do you have a copy of the Shop Manual?
http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/shop-manual
CB750K5        '79 XL250s     CL350K3
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Offline pjlogue

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2017, 10:39:10 am »
I had a real time getting my old swing arm bushings out.  Get a length of 1/2" steel rod ~18"-20" long.  Cut one end on a slight angle (~15 deg.)  Get a heavy hammer and put the longest end of the angle cut end of the rod so it contacts the inner end of the bushing.  (you need to pound them out by running the bar through the swing arm to contact the back side of the bushing.)  Use a firm blow to the end of the rod and work your way around the bushing.  It will come out eventually.  The bias cut end of the rod helps keep the rod on the end of the bushing instead of slipping off.  The idea is to impart the energy of the hammer to the bushing via the steel rod.

-P.

Offline jkot55

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2017, 04:25:46 pm »
I do not detect a seem that should be present between the collar and bushings.  If it is and I get them out does the collar come out either side? 
When I ride my CB750 I'm a teenager again

Offline pjlogue

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2017, 04:59:22 pm »
You need to drive part # 9 out.  It will remove the collar (#10) if that is what you are referring to.  Part #9 is steel.  Part #10 is hard fiber/phenolic.

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Offline jkot55

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 06:39:54 pm »
Does part 9 fit inside the swingarm and does the collar fit inside part 9?  I removed parts 10 (plastic/phenolic)  What I see is the collar sticking out a little on both sides.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 06:45:36 pm »
I still rebuild these arms, if you need that? (I'm going to the garage in a minute, to rebuild one tonight.)
I make custom-fitted Oilite bushings to fit each arm, and I have collars made for me since Honda quit making them - again.
It sounds like your old phenolic bushings have rusted (probably had water in their grease) and tied themselves to the swingarm ID in the tube, also often freezing the collar into place as well. I have 2 here where it became impossible to remove the collars because of this rust!

I use a steel rod 7/8" diameter to drive the stuck collars out. Sometimes this takes the frozen-in bushings out with them, an added bonus.

The "cheapened" collar and bolt first appeared in the last of the K3, but both types were found on the bikes until the K4, when all of them became the type you have. The swingarm had not changed, just the collar, bolt, and phenolic bushings.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 06:50:27 pm »
Does part 9 fit inside the swingarm and does the collar fit inside part 9?  I removed parts 10 (plastic/phenolic)  What I see is the collar sticking out a little on both sides.

Yep, Part #9 is the old-style phenolic bushing. The collar rides inside those. The maximum tolerance allowed for a safe arm is 0.0012" between the collar and the bushing, and the bushing is a press-fit of about 0.0024". Your bushings should look just like this picture, if you had felt washers. The end cap (part 10) is still available, I buy them often. The felt washer is, too. The bushings are not available, and not the best when they were. Sadly, I have not yet seen a set of aftermarket bronze bushings that were made correctly, nor with the proper clearance or press-fit. That's why I still do them on a one-at-a-time basis: the ID of these arms vary, and are often oval and tapered (wider toward the outside), from wear and the years.
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=65293.0

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jkot55

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 09:22:59 am »
So that now makes sense when I read your tip about the use of the hacksaw to remove the bushings.  For that the collar has to be out first with the bushings remaining.  So now knowing what I know now I have to step back and ask what might be a real stupid question:  When it is working as designed does the collar move inside of the 2 (phenolic in this case) bushings?  Is that what you mean by "rides inside those..."?  I ask because if it is supposed to be a tight fit why do I need to take anything out?  I purchased 2 brass thrust bushings to replace the plastic ones that came off (parts #10 in the diagram).  Sounds like I am stuck if I need to replace the bushings because I will certainly damage them by taking them out.  Can they be honed and reused since as you said, no longer available?
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2017, 04:13:12 pm »
What happens when you tighten the bolt is that you clamp the collar (#12) to the frame, nothing should ever pivot on the bolt. The swingarm should pivot on the collar, the bushings (#9) are its bearings.
What mark has explained is that with a lack of greasing (and a rather poor design, really) the bushings, tight in the swingarm ends, rust/gall onto the collar. That gives a very stiff swingarm, either it pivots poorly on the bushings or it manages to pivot on the bolt.
Normal wear makes the collar oval as well Too oveal and there will be ;ateral play on the wheel and handling will get weird.
Several things can go wrong: that rusting/galling, wear on the bushings, and wear on the collar.
The collar is unavailable new.
Phenolic bushings are, I think, available from Honda but I don't think the steel ones are.
Mark reconditions the assembly by making custom fit bronze (oilite) bushings - maybe he regrinds the collars to be round, as well.
You can get aftermarket bushings but, like Mark says, they tend to be a very poor fit. Usually too loose, the makers are probably aware of the fit issues (the inside bore is reduced when they get pressed into the arm ends) and make them so the swingarm and frame will go together... but to avoid a tight to impossible collar fit they make the ID oversize ... there will be excess lateral play at the wheel.
A decent machinist could make a replacement collar but it would be pricey!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 07:22:55 pm »
The collar is unavailable new.
Phenolic bushings are, I think, available from Honda but I don't think the steel ones are.

I think Honda might have gotten into some trouble over those steel ones, circa 2008 or so. They were destroying existing collars and making very loose swingarms, when installed.

Quote
Mark reconditions the assembly by making custom fit bronze (oilite) bushings - maybe he regrinds the collars to be round, as well.
A decent machinist could make a replacement collar but it would be pricey!

Roger both of these: I have collars made for me today. At first, I had them done one-off, cost me over $200 for the first one. Now it's closer to half that, but I still do the final fit-and-finish to them myself. I'm picky, as those who have had me rebuild them already know... ;)
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=65293.0

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline kgbtax

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Re: Swing Arm Collar removal 75 750K5
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 07:43:42 am »
THANK YOU EVERYONE!  Finally joined after getting all sorts of useful information from this site.  I know this post is a few months old but maybe this will benefit someone else.  Swing arm bushings were driving me mad and thought I would pass on a useful tip that I learned here for getting them out.  Take some washers (I used 2) just large enough to fit inside of the swingarm (but still cover the bushings) and grind down opposite sides until you can fit them thru the bushings.  Drop them into the swingarm and position them flat on the inside edge of the bushing and then pound out with a steel rod and hammer.  Used this method on 2 bikes and had the old bushings out in just a couple of swings from a 3 lb hammer.

 

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