Author Topic: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs  (Read 9866 times)

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Offline Nic

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2017, 10:35:43 PM »
Thanks mate  :)

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2017, 05:40:24 AM »


ATF is nominally 10w, FYI. 15 is about the max viscosity I'd put in to a fork

N.

Brings up a good question, Nils.  Do you suggest using ATF or spending the extra money for fork oil?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline markreimer

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2017, 07:38:28 AM »
Nic,

I don't think the Haynes manual is correct. I have a Haynes manual, Clymer, the OEM Honda service manual, HondaMan's book, and of course a laptop with SOHC4 bookmarked..  ;D all this is to say I did some comparisons before adding the oil. Haynes was the only manual that gave me the lower fork oil spec. That got me suspicious about the manual, and I found other obvious errors in it - clutch diagrams were labelled for incorrect years, diagrams with incorrect labelling for ignition adjustments, etc. I decided to stick with the 160ml spec.

The 160-162 spec is if old oil was drained but forks were not full disassembled and cleaned. If they were and the forks were entirely dry and free of oil, It was something like 240 or 200, can't quite recall. I took my forks off, turn them upside down with the caps off and let the oil run out for an hour or two, then put them back in the triples and added the oil.

ATF fluid is just like 10W fork oil. My OEM Honda manual actually says you can use ATF or 10W-30 motor oil. I'm not sure if there even were dedicated fork oils back then? I've always used ATF when I wanted 10W, it works great! My front end has never felt better.

Offline NobleHops

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2017, 08:52:30 AM »


ATF is nominally 10w, FYI. 15 is about the max viscosity I'd put in to a fork

N.

Brings up a good question, Nils.  Do you suggest using ATF or spending the extra money for fork oil?

Here's my take on this. YMMV.

First the short and sweet:

For an unmodified damper rod fork, I think that ATF is the best choice for damping fluid. If the fork isn't performing well, then first you need to address the springs and sag (by replacing or adjusting preload), and secondarily you should drain and replace the ATF, and then adjust the level of ATF to increase or decrease the volume of the air pocket that is being compressed as the fork travels. That's my opinion, short and sweet, for a straight-up damper rod fork. ATF is great stuff.

IF and only IF you have exhausted the potential of those two primary variables (spring rate and air gap), then varying the nominal 'weight' of the oil is a valuable tuning technique, but it is fraught with potential for inconsistency.

Now we can geek out a tad:

Fork oil 'weight' as stated by the manufacturer is actually a fairly arbitrary number, set by the manufacturer, and they vary WILDLY. A 'measured' value for a fork oil's viscosity is what is needed, but we can't always get it, except from third parties. ATF on the other hand is in fact a very precisely created thing: It has to be to be able to claim compatibility with the manufacturers' trademarks/specs (Dexron/Mercon, etc). And it is complicated, containing lubricants, detergents, friction modifiers, seal conditioners, and a half dozen other things I can't pronounce. Its viscosity is measured in centistokes at a given temperature of 40c, resulting in its "ISO" value. ATF's ISO is 34, no more, no less. So how do we use different (non-ATF) oils to tune the damping without it being a shot in the dark?

Using ISO 34 as our baseline for tuning, we can choose other oils to increase or decrease viscosity in relation to that number. We can do this by referring to some data that has been compiled that includes the measured ISO for different weights and brands of fork oil and find ones with the values that we seek, higher or lower than 34.

Here's a great link: http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid

And here's a takeaway if you don't feel like geeking out and digesting it: Redline and Silkolene fork oil are the most consistent, most linear in their respective stated 'weights'. IOW, you can get predictable  results going up or down in weight relative to the baseline value of ATF by using their products in increments above or below 10W.

LAST THOUGHT:

When it comes to forks that use cartridges, or emulators, or shock absorbers, this is a totally different ballgame, although the understanding of ISO is also very useful in choosing suspension fluids for tuning those too.

OK, who is still awake? :-)

« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:03:56 PM by NobleHops »
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2017, 01:17:46 PM »


ATF is nominally 10w, FYI. 15 is about the max viscosity I'd put in to a fork

N.


OK, who is still awake? :-)



Still awake!  Thanks for the thorough explanation and confirmed my thoughts: ATF is fine for stock fork systems if there are no tuning issues.

Thanks Nils.

PS.  I did not know there were Progressive progressive and Ikon progressive springs.  Wonder how many other guys dont know either?  You may want to get the message out...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2017, 08:24:45 PM »
Steve, a lot of shock manufacturers sell their own "Progressively Wound" fork springs, the problem is that one US manufacturer buggared things up by naming their company after a type of spring........... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline flatlander

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2017, 11:45:07 PM »
that's very helpful, nils! and yes i'm awake and listening ;)

to make sure i get this right:
in the table on the page that you link to, http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/images/a/a7/PVD-ISO-Viscosity-Data.gif.
the first column, "reported cSt@40C" contains the number that you refer to as ISO value?

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2017, 12:48:34 AM »
Drop a heavy Windjammer on the front of a 550 and you might actually reach for that 20W.    It would require a bit of tuning.  The 1/2" cpvs coupler or was that the pvc voupler that is a nice drop in preload spacer.

Nils,  Is that $100 figure for a set of springs for the forks and spacers to take up the preload stack needed?

We may see 90 today, if so it will be 2nd earliest date to reach 90F here in NE TN.
Tucson and Phoenix have been well past 90 already, by May 90 is a regular occurrence in Tucson.  You know summer is there when your night time temps do not go below 75F.

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline NobleHops

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2017, 06:06:30 AM »
that's very helpful, nils! and yes i'm awake and listening ;)

to make sure i get this right:
in the table on the page that you link to, http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/images/a/a7/PVD-ISO-Viscosity-Data.gif.
the first column, "reported cSt@40C" contains the number that you refer to as ISO value?

Correct!
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2017, 06:08:29 AM »
Steve, a lot of shock manufacturers sell their own "Progressively Wound" fork springs, the problem is that one US manufacturer buggared things up by naming their company after a type of spring........... ;D

No doubt that caused the confusion. After a little research, turns out Progressive's Mother Company, MAG, also owns Motorcycle Superstore, Renthal, J & P Cycles and Vance & Hines! 

http://www.maggroup.com/about-us
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline NobleHops

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2017, 06:13:26 AM »

Nils,  Is that $100 figure for a set of springs for the forks and spacers to take up the preload stack needed?


That's the cost of a set after SOHC4 discount.

Our spring kits usually reuse the existing spacer, or in some cases it needs to be shortened. When that's not the case we do provide it, precut for a standard application.

Weather here is sublime at this time of year as you know. So nice.
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline NobleHops

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2017, 06:27:34 AM »
Quote from: kmb69
Congratulations! Sounds like both of you guys are well on the road to recovery!  ;D

My wife says I have a problem!  :o  ???  I have *mumble* motorcycles!   ;)  8)

Sorry, what was that? 😁

Out with the facts, it's good for the soul. What's in YOUR hoar^^^^COLLECTION?
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2017, 02:44:55 PM »
Naming your company Progressive Springs is smart in a way because when someone recommends you to install some progressive springs they will benefit when that person goes to look them up or they tell the parts guy at a local motorcycle shop to order him a set of 75 pound progressive fork springs.  So, if he is a newb he would ask for progressive springs for his fron forks and the 75 pound springs.

Sometimes the counter guy would ask him if he wanted Progressive, Sonic, Ikon, etc...
So, they get more sales...

Cheap shot I know.

They (MAG) also have Roland Sand Designs and other companies a few are targeted towards certain niches in the market.
A modern robber baron company...

Yeah Nils, would gladly take the dry heat over our humid stuff here.  Even the 90s is great there until you reach body temp and that isn't comfortable, but once it gets above that it is nice again until the sticky humidity of the rains arrive.
I confused the days, Saturday will see 90, today a measley 84 but only 30-35% humidity so it was nice.  We are usually 50-60% or higher.  I prefer AZ over any state I have lived in...southern AZ that is...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2017, 05:49:29 PM »
Yep, smart marketing, it's just a pity that their products are sh1t. I wasted way too much on a set of their rear shocks for my Triumph Rocket III, and there was a pair of their "Shorty" shocks on my Harley Sportster, and they're both rubbish. I replaced the Sportster's rear shocks with Ikon's new 7614-1298 gas pressurised alloy bodied shocks with adjustable damping. Needless to say, they sh1t all over the crappy Progressive brand shocks that the PO installed. Cheers, Terry. ;D

I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline kmb69

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2017, 02:34:42 PM »
Quote from: kmb69
Congratulations! Sounds like both of you guys are well on the road to recovery!  ;D

My wife says I have a problem!  :o  ???  I have *mumble* motorcycles!   ;)  8)

Sorry, what was that? 😁

Out with the facts, it's good for the soul. What's in YOUR hoar^^^^COLLECTION?

Good question, but I don't have enough fingers and toes and the battery's dead in my calculator!   ;)  8)

Planning on taking an inventory Monday since I need to update my insurance agent anyway. Get back to ya.

Guaranteed, it's really sick!   ;)  8)


Offline NobleHops

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Re: Ikon shocks and progressive front springs
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2017, 03:19:01 PM »
Quote from: kmb69
Congratulations! Sounds like both of you guys are well on the road to recovery!  ;D

My wife says I have a problem!  :o  ???  I have *mumble* motorcycles!   ;)  8)

Sorry, what was that? 😁

Out with the facts, it's good for the soul. What's in YOUR hoar^^^^COLLECTION?

Good question, but I don't have enough fingers and toes and the battery's dead in my calculator!   ;)  8)

Planning on taking an inventory Monday since I need to update my insurance agent anyway. Get back to ya.

Guaranteed, it's really sick!   ;)  8)

Getting popcorn, BRB.
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0